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Ukraine may eventually lose the war, but Russia has already lost it.
The Russians have gone in
- Thread starter LVSteve
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Ukraine may eventually lose the war, but Russia has already lost it.
What really makes our military fearsome in addition are career NCOs, E5-E9, and 'ratings' systems in our sea forces.
Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
IMHO, Ukraine will lose this war. And Russia will inherit billions of dollars in weapons donated by USA, Europe. DEJA VU ALLOVER AGAIN !!!
IMHO not worth a worry considering what's at stake, both in terms of financial and military value, just like the same in Afghanistan didn't justify much of all the outraged gum-flapping about it.
We're selling our top-of-the-line stuff all over the world anyways. The idea that a technically advanced country like Russia can somehow draw any benefit from the kind of second- and third-tier, largely obsolescent military material we are providing is not very compelling. A lot is donated former Combloc technology and hardware. The 155mm howitzers in the latest US package go back to a WW II design. The Leo I tanks the Germans consider releasing are 1980s vintage and may not be up to the upgraded T-62, let alone T-72, T-80, T-90. Most of the electronics will need training and advising and be a challenge even for the Ukrainians who get assistance. Considering what's at stake, the idea that the Russian might capture some of that stuff is just about the least of concerns.
War needs weapons. If we want other people to do the fighting for us, we've got to give them the stuff they need.
IMHO, Ukraine will lose this war. And Russia will inherit billions of dollars in weapons donated by USA, Europe. DEJA VU ALLOVER AGAIN !!!
Likely some undesirables, maybe a terrorist group or three, but hey the military and civilian experts have it all figured out.
UncleEd
Member
This is a slugfest of tanks, rtockets and artillery, which has caught the US Military planners with their pants down, having declared they were moving to small, fast mobile units as fighting terrorism was their primary objective. And to that end, 2300 M1A2 were parked in storage with most in Texas, and the Marines were just starting to restructure their force from battlefield to strike force focus..
NATO is now in the process of re-building the Iron Wall that kept Russia in check for decades, and Germany has committed two trillion $ to arming it's country for the first time since WW2. And the economic sanctions will be sending Russa's economy straight over a cliff.
What Putin will 'win' out of this war is absolute chump change compared to what he will lose. Easily the worse miscalculation since Hitler sent his troops into Russia during winter.
NATO is now in the process of re-building the Iron Wall that kept Russia in check for decades, and Germany has committed two trillion $ to arming it's country for the first time since WW2. And the economic sanctions will be sending Russa's economy straight over a cliff.
What Putin will 'win' out of this war is absolute chump change compared to what he will lose. Easily the worse miscalculation since Hitler sent his troops into Russia during winter.
But they were supposed to be victorious before winter. Like Kiev would fall in three days.
Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Both Hitler and Putin were essentially expecting a political war. Not defeating the enemy's entire forces and occupying the entire country, but taking the capital and causing political control to disintegrate and the government to surrender or run. It had worked for Hitler in France in May/June 1940; taking Paris wasn't even necessary.
There are credible sources now indicating that Hitler knew that the war was irretrievably lost by November 1941, and indicated as much to some confidantes. As all of you are aware, it didn't end until three-and-a-half years later in May 1945.
That's why nobody should expect a quick end to Putin's war, no matter how badly the Russian army fares.
I have to admire a man who walks the walk rather than just talking the talk. 'I am done talking': Former MSNBC analyst now fighting in Ukraine - CNN Video
UncleEd
Member
Telephone traffic between Russian
soldiers indicates morale is dropping
further.
This traffic is reported by the Ukrainians
and I don't believe confirmed yet by
U.S. or NATO officials.
soldiers indicates morale is dropping
further.
This traffic is reported by the Ukrainians
and I don't believe confirmed yet by
U.S. or NATO officials.
IMHO, Ukraine will lose this war. And Russia will inherit billions of dollars in weapons donated by USA, Europe. DEJA VU ALLOVER AGAIN !!!
What do you mean by "lose"? Do you actually think the Ukrainians will surrender and live passively under Russian subjugation? In what sense will Russia "win" and Ukraine "lose"?
I don't have a crystal ball, of course, but the way I see it, Putin will never accomplish what he set out to do: capture Kviv and install a puppet regime. And every moment he stays in Ukraine, he will have to deal with a committed and well-armed insurgency.
I see no way that Russia can "win" this war, in any sense of the word. The only question in my mind is how much blood will have to be shed before Putin realizes that.
OP
LVSteve
Member
It's an imperfect world; always has been, always will be.
I will be glad when the "U" finally gets those missles that they can use against planes and ships,
that should turn the tide in a big way.
Maybe even test 2 towards Russia and any of their ships, to see if they work, just for the heck of it !!
that should turn the tide in a big way.
Maybe even test 2 towards Russia and any of their ships, to see if they work, just for the heck of it !!
I fear you may be right. Months of needless blood-letting for no measurable gain. He seems to have vastly underestimated the difficulty of the task (re Moltke's maxim that "no battle plan survives first contact with the enemy") and is digging himself deeper into a hole from which the only seeming salvation would be to retreat/call the whole thing off, which he can't do as it would essentially admit defeat. Meanwhile Ukraine is getting blown to bits and there is, according to some reports, increasing dissatisfaction within Russia. And if the worldwide sanctions have the desired effect, he will be increasingly isolated and like a trapped rat. It is a disheartening and desperate scenario.
On a slightly lighter note, my neighbour told me at dinner last night that the Ukrainian family her mother has invited to stay in her house will finally be arriving on May 6 after being stuck in Poland while the inevitable mountains of paperwork were being worked through. At least they will be safe and "settled" but many challenges still remain. We all agreed that we over here cannot imagine what it is like to be shelled and completely uprooted, losing everything and moving to a culture that, while still "western", is so different than their own. We are SO lucky...
bigwheelzip
Absent Comrade
Don't worry about that. Having Ukrainian friends, traveled the former East Bloc, and rented apartments to Estonians and Russians, from what I've seen, except for the Christians being Orthodox, they live just like us.
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I was thinking more of language and integrating into the local community after being forced out of their own. But yes, with some TLC they will settle in
And if they are Orthodox, there are Ukrainian, Greek and Russian orthodox churches nearby. (And the Russian orthodox churches here will certainly support them.)
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It will be a perfect world someday, I hold tight to that promise.
bigwheelzip
Absent Comrade
Be forewarned though, they are exceedingly gracious when it comes to drinking a toast to you.
Whenever hubby did maintenance in their apartments, he came back "toasted", and he's not generally a drinker.
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