So what happens after a primer detonates?

TexasViking

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If you said that it ignites the propellant? Winner, winner, chicken dinner as they they say in Lost Wages!

This is a subject, that for many years I have seen speculation on, with many false assumptions concerning Pressure Peak and when it occurs. So for reloaders and ammo enthusiasts here, I will provide some info on this. Some guys that have been handloading as long as I have, or longer, will probably read some things from the “good old days” that I am very appreciative of, and feel like I got started in the “Golden Age” of handloading. And because my personal occupation has required an understanding of pressure in multiple forms, I really miss the days when better information was provided to handloaders, pressure curve analysis in particular. The last such information that I saw came from Western Powder Co. at a time that I believe they had the best ballistican I've ever spoken to. His name was Johan Loubser, who first informed me about the CIP method of pressure testing in Europe around 2001. And in case you're not aware, the 9mm NATO, 5.56mm NATO and the 7.62mm NATO had their Maximum Average Pressures, MAP, estabished via the CIP method. In the interest of avoiding an excessively lengthy first post, I will quote some valuable information that was printed in the Lyman 46th Edition Handloading manual, and it will be printed in italics.

So why does Lyman have higher numbers for their handloading manual editions? Because the very first manual was actually written by the Ideal Reloading Tool Co. in the 1880s and has continued on after the Lyman Gun Sight Co. purchased Ideal in 1925. If you've seen an old western movie where men were sitting around the campfire making handloads, the handtool they are using was likely one of several made by Ideal, whose owner/inventor began after being discharged from the US Army in 1865. Some of these things we can address as the thread progresses. My aim here is to provide those with correct information that they may not have read in their handload manual. And as I've stated before, and what has essentially become an axiom for me: Every Handloader Should Own At least One Lyman Manual! Continuous pressure rated data since before I actually made my first handloaded cartridge in 1986 and manuals going back another hundred years.

The Primer Goes Bang!

"Upon ignition of the propellant by the primer, hot gases begin to build up behind the bullet. During the first fraction of a millisecond, the pressure rise is very gradual. Smokeless propellants, however, burn more rapidly as pressure increases. In other words, the pressure increase causes more rapid propellant burning which in turn causes more gases and higher pressures. This leads to the very rapid pressure increase that starts at about 0.1millisecond.
When the pressure reaches a point (typically less than 10,000 PSI) where the friction force between bullet and case neck is overcome, the bullet begins to move.
Movement of the bullet into the barrel throat increases the expansion volume of the gases. This volume increase tends to lower the pressure. However, the pressure generated before the bullet exits the cartridge causes the powder to burn so fast that gases are generated faster than the volume increases. Chamber pressure therefore continues to rise. The bullet is forced into the rifling and begins to accelerate down the bore.
As the bullet moves down the bore, the expansion volume for the gases increases very rapidly. Chamber pressure then reaches a PEAK VALUE, and then begins to fall."
 
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More technical information is a good thing. There are many myths attached to ammunition and reloading, and technical information will help dispel them. Not that it will always be accepted or even believed.

Most appreciate the irony of Berdan and Boxer primers. Theoretically the Berdan primer has a "better" flame path, but they both work, so it is not likely an issue to debate, though as reloaders, we are very appreciative of Boxer primers.

I am unclear as to what equation(s) you are looking for. I suggest you look for copies of the several volumes of The Machine Gun by Chinn as the volumes cover the operation of most gun mechanisms in detail.

Other equations, such as determining the recoil of a gun are easily generated without the need for references. If a reference is desired, check out Hatcher's Notebook and is discussion about recoil.
 
Having read the post, and being old and having pieces of paper that say I am an engineer, computer scientist, and mathematician, are you smart enough to simplify your question to less than 20 words?, what is the question? :) And I have had a few adult beverages tonight :)
 
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More technical information is a good thing. There are many myths attached to ammunition and reloading, and technical information will help dispel them. Not that it will always be accepted or even believed.

Most appreciate the irony of Berdan and Boxer primers. Theoretically the Berdan primer has a "better" flame path, but they both work, so it is not likely an issue to debate, though as reloaders, we are very appreciative of Boxer primers.

I am unclear as to what equation(s) you are looking for. I suggest you look for copies of the several volumes of The Machine Gun by Chinn as the volumes cover the operation of most gun mechanisms in detail.

Other equations, such as determining the recoil of a gun are easily generated without the need for references. If a reference is desired, check out Hatcher's Notebook and is discussion about recoil.

None actually. Just commenting on Chucks ability to solve physical science questions, particularly relating to terminal ballistics about as fast as you can ask him.

Myself, I keep my equations simple enough so even engineers can follow, LOL!
 
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Having read the post, and being old and having pieces of paper that say I am an engineer, computer scientist, and mathematician, are you smart enough to simplify your question to less than 20 words?, what is the question? :) And I have had a few adult beverages tonight :)

Not too many complaints actually seeing as how I've had to design for engineers in their own fields, civil and electrical in particular. Maybe a few aspirins will help. Have a few papers on the wall myself certifying me to design for their products like Telsco Industries, Faraday Corp, BOSE Corp and the NFPA. Oh, I'm a skilled surveyor as well. Get out much?
 
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None actually. Just commenting on Chucks ability to solve physical science questions, particularly relating to terminal ballistics about as fast as you can ask him.

Myself, I keep my equations simple enough so even engineers can follow, LOL!

A long-time friend who just happens to be a licensed professional engineer with MBA degree has a saying I always enjoy hearing:

You don't have to graduate from barber college to understand this stuff.
 
Speakina campfire reloading, I sure like the 1894 Winchester tool and wish someone would make one today.

Hated the noisy Lee Loader and I'm sure all the banging would draw hostiles from miles around.
 
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Quick note;

If you cut out a picture of a state using a section of cardboard, then

balance it on the tip of a sharp pencil, you will find the center of the state.

First reload in 1986, nice, but I might have a few years on you.

It is amazing how fast all this happens, when there is a lot going on.
I was so afraid of a "KaBoom" on my first ever reload. Lots of water
under the bridge, since then.

Thanks for the nice write up.
 
Pretty sure in a revolver ,the dynamics are a little different. Peak pressure occurs in the cylinder before the bullet is in the barrel. The barrel cylinder gap likely plays a role in that. If you read Handloader magazine , Brian Pearce has expanded on this . You notice when a revolver lets go, it blows the top of the cylinder off, not the barrel.
 
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One thing to consider is that combustion of smokeless powder produces gasses. But equally, if not more, important is that those gasses are very HOT due to the energy released by combustion. The pressure produced is directly proportional to the absolute temperature of the gas, and the main difference between the different propellants is the amount of heat produced and how quickly. P=nRT/V
 
Pretty sure in a revolver ,the dynamics are a little different. Peak pressure occurs in the cylinder before the bullet is in the barrel. The barrel cylinder gap likely plays a role in that. If you read Handloader magazine , Brian Pearce has expanded on this . You notice when a revolver lets go, it blows the top of the cylinder off, not the barrel.

There are variables and DWalt makes a very good point in post #14. The MAP you're loading for certainly effects the dynamic of how much combustion volume a cartridge will require, and you do lose some pressure via the flash gap in revolver loads. But handgun cartridges have far less volume for the gases to expand in. A certain amount of pressure is going to be required to get the bullet moving, and even that will change slightly based on the weight of the bullet and how much of it gets seated into the case.

Also guys, I should point out the authors of the excellent article from which the text in italics came: W.T. McDonald and H.C. Howarth. I haven't checked to see if this article is in newer editions and hope it is. But the only comparisons I typically make is the data in the later editions.
 
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Brady is supposed to be the geographic center of Texas. I'm one county up in Brown where folks around here refer to the area as Heart of Texas. Close enough. Easier than saying Northwest Central Texas. A good distance N NW of Austin, thankfully!

Rochelle, TX is almost exactly halfway between Brownwood and Brady and is the closest "town" to the middle of Texas. The "exact" geographic center of Texas is on private property about five miles from the highway marker on US377.

Virtually all the very nearby (by Texas standards) towns can claim midpoint status. Brownwood, Brady, San Saba, Goldthwaite, Santa Anna, etc.

I'm 25 miles east of the "exact" Heart of Texas in Mills County.

Welcome to the forum Texas Viking.

Bryan
 
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Rochelle, TX is almost exactly halfway between Brownwood and Brady and is the closest "town" to the middle of Texas. The "exact" geographic center of Texas is on private property about five miles from the highway marker on US377.

Virtually all the very nearby (by Texas standards) towns can claim midpoint status. Brownwood, Brady, San Saba, Goldthwaite, Santa Anna, etc.

I'm 25 miles east of the "exact" Heart of Texas in Mills County.

Welcome to the forum Texas Viking.

Bryan

Thanks, TXBryan! Kind of liked Nevada Ed's trick. Been a long time since I've heard that one mentioned. About as far as I've ever gone in searching was looking at the extremes of latitude and longitude.
Rochelle sounds good as the true center, and I agree that several counties around the center can call themselves HoT as Brown Co. does.
 
Primers, powder, burn rate.

If you want - GOOGLE- " Mysteries And Misconceptions Of The All-Important Primer"

And Primer Output and Initial Projectile Motion for 5.56- and 7.62-mm Ammunition

And FirearmsID.com Feature Article, January 2007- The Manufacture of Smokeless Powders and their Forensic Analysis: A Brief Review

The primer firing will produce about 23,000 PSI in the pocket. No powder/bullet in the case.

Powder FAST burn rates may consume powder & be at maximum pressure in a very short time, like Bullseye.

In rifles, slow powders may not fully burn, as it reaches the muzzle. Slow powder, long barrels produce the highest velocity.

The military tests many things. Search here- https://discover.dtic.mil/
 
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There are definitely variables and primer detonation/pressure is a different topic than pressure peak for burning propellant gases, obviously, since there are still a number of cartridges around with pressures even lower than the .38 Special's MAP of 17,000 CUP/ 17,000 PSI with .44 Special and and .45 Colt having even lower MAPs.

People who make statements in regard to pressure peaking before the bullet leaves the cylinder are making a number of assumptions. What we know from the article I quoted is that burning smokeless propellant being converted to high pressure/temperature gases requires a sizable increase in combustion volume before pressure can peak, whereupon pressure begins to decrease; and not before then.

Seems like people think that the flash gap between the cylinder and the forcing cone (around .006") is leaking gas pressure to a greater degree ( like a broken water main ) than what the actual increase in gas volume is doing. The increase in pressure depends on a LARGER increase in volume. And maybe it's being overlooked that the volume is linear.

Whoever your favorite gunwriter is, to suggest that pressure peaks before the bullet has left the cylinder of a revolver seems to not really understand the rapid nature of the dynamic. I mean, it ain’t like we’re shooting Siamese revolvers. Not even in the case of a revolver cylinder having excessively large throats can gas escape around the bullet base at such a pace to cause pressure to peak before the bullet has left the cylinder.

What causes the intense pressure that escapes from the flash gap? First of all, it doesn’t leak greatly until the base of the bullet has passed the flash-gap, otherwise, the gases are pushing towards the largest window of escape: the muzzle in a linear direction of gas flow. Opinions are one thing, but as the old saying goes: “when you assume, you make an A** of U and Me.” And to make such a statement without proving it by pressure testing is an a**-umption. I don’t care if they’re shooting the .32 H&R Magnum or the .500 S&W Magnum. There’s reason why Lyman tests with VENTED barrels for revolver loads.
 
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One thing to consider is that combustion of smokeless powder produces gasses. But equally, if not more, important is that those gasses are very HOT due to the energy released by combustion. The pressure produced is directly proportional to the absolute temperature of the gas, and the main difference between the different propellants is the amount of heat produced and how quickly. P=nRT/V

P=nRT/V or beter known the Ideal Gas Law.
Where:
• P = pressure
• V = volume
• n = number of moles
• T = temperature
• R = gas constant

Using the equation is strait forward until you remember that once the bullet starts to move V is no longer a constant. Now the problem begins, so while this is important law its application is beyond the vast majority of handloaders.

Please don’t think I am saying it not important or relevant – it is, I am saying it has little practical use to the average handloader.

The most important point you brought forward is “the main difference between the different propellants is the amount of heat produced and how quickly”.

Handloaders should understand that the burn rate is not linear, it is pressure dependent.

This is big because it should help handloader to understand that case volume plays a big part in how the powder will behave.
 

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