Montanans and electric cars

[venomballistics]

Please show me that electric vehicles are more net efficient than ICE vehicles when my grid uses nat gas and coal to generate the electricity for an electric car?

It seems that Europe may be in a poor situation this winter with relying on Communist Russia to send them oil. Russia is at war with the West. This will not end well.

I am all in on ICE vehicles until the EV technology exceeds the wishful thinking of the liberal elites.

Brushless electric motors typically hover around 85% efficiency.
Internal combustion with never come close to this figure. But that's not it's problem. It's all storage problems. Electrical storage is physically too large, capacity too small, and too irreparably slow to replenish.
How it's generated is irrelevant to it being the wrong tool for the job.
We haven't become fully cognizant of the full scope of the issue yet. When we do, we might liken the EV to desk lamps with pull starts

 

[johngalt]

Brushless electric motors typically hover around 85% efficiency.
Internal combustion with never come close to this figure. But that's not it's problem. It's all storage problems. Electrical storage is physically too large, capacity too small, and too irreparably slow to replenish.
How it's generated is irrelevant to it being the wrong tool for the job.
We haven't become fully cognizant of the full scope of the issue yet. When we do, we might liken the EV to desk lamps with pull starts

85% for the motor * x efficiency to convert coal in electricity? I don't know what x is, but I suspect x * .85 isn't better than a gasoline engine.

 

[vt_shooter]

85% for the motor * x efficiency to convert coal in electricity? I don't know what x is, but I suspect x * .85 isn't better than a gasoline engine.

And there's the loss that happens in the electrical transmission lines.

 

[SMSgt]

I drove back from SC to FL last week. Outside of a big city, saw not one EV cruising down the interstate. No EV infrastructure.

 

[pharmer]

Gasoline engines do burn vaporized fuel. Liquid gasoline doesn't burn.

My mistake not being specific. I used to demonstrate proper use of ABC fire extinguisher twice a year to staff where I worked. I'd float a teaspoon of gas on a water filled tray. The match was at least a foot above when the "whoof" happened. P.A.S.S. I also use a 2 ton vehicle to cart my 'ol *** around. You don't need to be in Montana to annoy the elites. Joe

 

[625-7]

Fuel is atomized by carburetion, more efficiently by injection and vaporized under compression before spark introduction

 

[steelslaver]

If the electricity is produced by methods other than combustion electric motors are far more efficient. BTW older coal fires generators are *-about 32% efficient and new ones are around 40% more than the vast majority of cars and trucks. Hydro electric is way up there. Newer nukes run around 40% also.

The problems with electric are 1st electrical production and transmission next is storage capacity and charge time.

But. on electrical efficiency vs internal combustion saying electric isn't as efficent as internal once you figure electrical production efficiency don't forget to add in the amount of fuel and electricity cnsumed to produce and REFINE oil to make that gas. I worked in a refineries and a lot is consumed right there before it every gets to a engine.

Trains, big unit rig trucks, lots of middle sized boats are hybrids running diesel electric. Using an electric motor as a final drive means no loss to transmissions, or drive lines, fuel pump, way less to lubrication systems.

Plus, they have far and away more torque capability. The fastest 1/4 mile production cars right now are electrics. The electric Rimac Nevera ($2,030,000) is currently the fastest 1/4-mile car in the world with a time of 8.58 seconds. For an idea 2021 Bugatti Chiron Super Sport ($3,825,000)takes 9.1. A 2021 Tesla Model S Plaid takes 9.4 ($130,000)

 

[venomballistics]

85% for the motor * x efficiency to convert coal in electricity? I don't know what x is, but I suspect x * .85 isn't better than a gasoline engine.

And that would be the storage and replenishment portion of the system.

 

[johngalt]

And that would be the storage and replenishment portion of the system.

Of course, I fully support anyone who wants to switch to EV, and therefor preserve the oil supply for my Corvette.

 

[venomballistics]

Of course, I fully support anyone who wants to switch to EV, and therefor preserve the oil supply for my Corvette.

Till they ban it for non government use
I'm kinda worried about refrigeration during grid failure while generators sit useless under such conditions.
That's sure to become rather annoying.

 

[johngalt]

Till they ban it for non government use
I'm kinda worried about refrigeration during grid failure while generators sit useless under such conditions.
That's sure to become rather annoying.

What will be more annoying is when the roads smell like french fries, from the diesel owners burning fryer oil.

 

[Retired W4]

I only have one term for you to ponder. Thermal runaway. Just hope it does not happen in your garage. Your house will be gone. I have nothing against EVs, just a healthy respect for the risks associated with any new technology

 

[Alton]

If the electricity is produced by methods other than combustion electric motors are far more efficient. BTW older coal fires generators are *-about 32% efficient and new ones are around 40% more than the vast majority of cars and trucks. Hydro electric is way up there. Newer nukes run around 40% also.

The problems with electric are 1st electrical production and transmission next is storage capacity and charge time.

But. on electrical efficiency vs internal combustion saying electric isn't as efficent as internal once you figure electrical production efficiency don't forget to add in the amount of fuel and electricity cnsumed to produce and REFINE oil to make that gas. I worked in a refineries and a lot is consumed right there before it every gets to a engine.

Trains, big unit rig trucks, lots of middle sized boats are hybrids running diesel electric. Using an electric motor as a final drive means no loss to transmissions, or drive lines, fuel pump, way less to lubrication systems.

Plus, they have far and away more torque capability. The fastest 1/4 mile production cars right now are electrics. The electric Rimac Nevera ($2,030,000) is currently the fastest 1/4-mile car in the world with a time of 8.58 seconds. For an idea 2021 Bugatti Chiron Super Sport ($3,825,000)takes 9.1. A 2021 Tesla Model S Plaid takes 9.4 ($130,000)

Try an electric car in Nascar. You would have to come up with 30 minute commercials when everyone has to pit and charge. Plus you would have to have a power plant on the track to power 20 electric cars at the same time since it would take 7 megawatts.

 

[bigwheelzip]

Try an electric car in Nascar.

There are already off-the-shelf inductive chargers that match the power output of NASCAR cars, so no need to plug in on a track with inductive plates embedded.





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[Alton]

So explain to me how a 4800 car will do on changing tires versus a 3300 lb car. The fastest Tesla charger is 350KW and takes 20+ minutes to get to 80%. So you are saying their are light weight batteries to get the weight down to 3300 lbs?

 

[steelslaver]

Try an electric car in Nascar. You would have to come up with 30 minute commercials when everyone has to pit and charge. Plus you would have to have a power plant on the track to power 20 electric cars at the same time since it would take 7 megawatts.

You could just slam in another fully charges battery during a pit stop. Set up correctly you could do it as fast as changing tires and adding fuel. And or use Aluminum Ion batteries store which 3 times the power of a Lithium battery and charge 70 times faster. The have a rather short life span however, which would not be a factor in that type of racing. Supplying 7 mega watts at a race track would not be difficult and it would not all be needed all at once anyway. If nothing else they could just take 10 Nascar motors and have them run generators.

Or they could stick inductive chargers right in the track and the cars could run way lighter batteries, never need to stop except for tires because they would be constantly recharging. Slot cars with no slots.

Besides Nascar has nothing to do with useful driving and at this point actual racing.

Anyone who doesn't believe that some point EVs will replace internal combustion should remember those who believed motors would never replace horses.

When cars first came out there were not a lot of refineries nor gas stations on every corner. The brakes sucked, the roads sucked, The motors were unreliable and broke down, you had to back up hills with some because of the splash oil system. LOL

EV will get there, but they need to quit trying to put the buggy inn front of the horse. FIRST we need the electrical supply and the infrastructure. Like I have said grandpa didn't sell his horses and buy a Plymouth right away when he saw a 1908 Model T,

We are just in the 1908s of electric vehicles.

I am NOT against electric, I do believe however it will be appox 40-50 years before we have the 55 Chevy V8 of electric and the infrastructure that supported that 55 Chev.

Out lawing internal combustion before we reach that point is STUPID

 

[bigwheelzip]

So explain to me how a 4800 car will do on changing tires versus a 3300 lb car. The fastest Tesla charger is 350KW and takes 20+ minutes to get to 80%. So you are saying their are light weight batteries to get the weight down to 3300 lbs?

I'm saying a NASCAR car puts out about 560kw, and existing vehicle inductive power technology already exceeds that, thus no need for batteries.
Think of essentially a kids slot car, with an induction system taking the place of the conductive rails.


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[delcrossv]

I'm saying a NASCAR car puts out about 560kw, and existing vehicle inductive power technology already exceeds that, thus no need for batteries.
Think of essentially a kids slot car, with an induction system taking the place of the conductive rails.


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That sounds pricy. Really pricy. And if it's not everywhere, you'd still need batteries.

In any event, burning coal or NG to run electric cars makes less than no sense.

On RTG's- they're wonderful but not very efficient- IIRC about 15%. That may be improvable, but not everyone would like the idea of a couple of kg of Pu238 sitting in the trunk .

Fuel cells may make more sense, but then you'd need to build a H2 infrastructure (also pricy) and then where would the H2 come from? Mostly reformed CH4 these days.

EVs smell of impractical virtue signaling ( or rent seeking for the connected)to me.

 

[bigwheelzip]

That sounds pricy. Really pricy. And if it's not everywhere, you'd still need batteries.

The previous battery-free comment was strictly regarding race tracks. And no, the induction technology is not especially pricey or difficult, and is already being rolled out on test sections of public highway in various countries.

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[TeamPB]

Photographic evidence

Yesterday, on the last leg of a great northern Rockies Arms and Armor museum vacation, we discovered how Teslas get across Wyoming.