Idle Speculation

[Green Frog]

OK, COVID affects the amphibian brain in strange ways apparently. As I've been lounging about at home trying to recover from my bout with it, I've been reading a lot on the InterWeb and had the following epiphany… I'm dreaming it's 1960 and I am a working class kind of guy who wants to shoot Bullseye on the cheap with revolvers. My gun box will contain a WW I vintage Model 1917 S&W upgraded as discussed here recently with Micro sights and a trigger job and Tyler T grip.

There would also be a WW II vintage Victory Model converted by Parker Hale or Cogswell & Harrison and purchased on time from Marshall Field in Chicago. It too would have a Tyler T grip on the original military grips.

My gun box would also be GI, a 50 cal ammo can fitted with wooden dividers to hold the two guns and their necessary accoutrements for competition. I have a couple of pictures of the box of one of my more affluent shooting buddies. He shoots a full 3 gun program with a 38. Maybe one day I'll be able to move up as well. Even an amphibian can dream...

Froggie

 

[Jim Watson]

He shoots a full 3 gun program with a 38.

Must be fever dreams. The "3 gun program" requires a .22 and a .45. The Centerfire may be anything .32 to .45.

 

[Green Frog]

Amphibians don't dream small… my fantasy box would have three separate guns so I would have a different gun for each leg. I even heard about some of those big shots who own a revolver in 32 S&W Long. Being a poor working frog, I wonder if I could find a gunsmith who would sleeve a Victory Model to 32 and add target sights. That would be better than a pond covered with flies!
Uh oh, it's time for my meds again!

 

[Jim Watson]

Well, there were conversions of BSRs to .22; .32 would be easier with no firing pin change.
But considering that S&W themselves never sold enough K frame .32s to matter...

 

[Green Frog]

You have to remember Jim, this is a Phevered Phibian Phantasy! It can't be limited by facts and statistics.

As for the 32 cal conversion of the Victory Model, the only really tough part would be the extractor. A section of 303 British Enfield could be turned down to make the barrel liner and even as the stock from which to make the chamber inserts. One surplus barrel, bought cheaply, would provide all the raw material for all the conversion except the extractor. It could be done if the gunsmith could be persuaded.

Froggie

 

[Krogen]

You have to remember Jim, this is a Phevered Phibian Phantasy! It can't be limited by facts and statistics.

This is phun! My phantasy is just shooting Bullseye with revolvers. I'm all set with a K-22, K-32, K-38 and M25. Yeah I know only three stages, but I really wanna shoot the K-32 in competition.

Unfortunately, my true phoolish phantasy is trying to shoot rapid fire with a revolver. I have tried, and phailed miserably.

 

[Green Frog]

The challenge to shooting the rapid fire stage single action with a revolver is to realize that ten seconds can be a long time. You just need to shoot deliberately but fast. "Take your time quickly."
Froggie

 

[red9]

The Centerfire may be anything .32 to .45.

In the 1930s, Col. Askins shot a Centerfire match with a Colt Woodsman converted to .22 Velo Dog. The rules were then changed.

Bob

 

[Jim Watson]

Right. Our Frog specified 1960 era.

I once read of Australian ISU shooters putting barrel sleeves, target sights, and target grips on Police Positive .32s to get more reliability than early attempts at .32 wadcutter blowback autos. Manurhin sold .32 revolvers to the carriage trade there.

I don't think remaking the .38 extractor for .32 would be any harder than for .22 and PH did that routinely.

These days such work would be a Level 3 gunsmithing job where I define Level 1 as routine, 2 as common but expensive, and 3 as physically possible but only if you can find somebody to bother with it.

 

[jimmyj]

In the 1960s I shot Bullseye Matches. Three relays-.22, .38, and .45.
You were alllow to use a .45 for the .38 and .45 relays.
I used revolvers for all three relays.
.22 : S&W Model 17 or Model 18
.38 : S&W Model 19
.45 : S&W Model 1955

I settled on four inch barrel lengths to challenge myself.
.22 : Model 18
.38 : Model 19
.45 : Model 1955 with barrel cut back to 4 5/8"

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

In the 1930s, Col. Askins shot a Centerfire match with a Colt Woodsman converted to .22 Velo Dog. The rules were then changed.

Bob

IIRC (the article, not the event), that was the first and last time that cartridge was used in a CF match. He won the match.

 

[Green Frog]

IIRC (the article, not the event), that was the first and last time that cartridge was used in a CF match. He won the match.

In one of his books he outlined the process by which he developed the cartridge and had the Colt Woodsman modified to handle his wildcat round.

His logic was that his 22 scores were far better than his 38 revolver and his 45 auto pistol scores, so to bring his total 2700 score for all three legs up, he built a game beater, essentially a CF 22 LR.

As he expected, he blew away the field at Camp Perry, but according to him the other competitors whined so much about his unfair advantage his boss on the Border Patrol was pressured into making him withdraw it and right after that the Rules Committee met and set the 32 caliber minimum for the "Any CF" match leg.

At the time, Target Autos were in their infancy, so 38 revolvers by S&W and Colt, with a few less common 32 S&W L revolvers were the order of the day. Since the 38 Spl was so ubiquitous among LEOs and others, they were commonly found as well. The 32s were so common on the international scene they were included, but it mostly came down to 38s for most shooters, leading a significant number of shooters to just go with two guns and shoot their 45s in the Any CF leg. Jim Clark and others developed the 38 wad guns based on modified Colt 1911s and eventually Smith built the Model 52, but those are stories for another day. Besides, I'm dreaming about shooting revolvers here.

Froggie

PS Here's a thought: How about a Model 53 with the auxiliary 22 LR cylinder rechambered to the "22 Askins"? It wouldn't be eligible for any known match event and the cost to build and feed it would be prohibitive for any but the most devoted (or insane) experimenter. Then again who among us ever claimed to be totally sane?

 

[Green Frog]

Back to my original dream… it is fun (but a little frustrating) to go back into American Rifleman mags from the '50s and '60s and drool over the ads from Ye Olde Hunter's Lodge and others. If I could hop into my time machine and go back to that time, what a bunch of interesting guns I could gather up from the backlog of WW II surplus. Those BSRs and Victories and even WW I 1917s were available for a song and by the box full so you could pick some great ones to modify to fill a Target Box. One can dream!
Froggie

 

[wcat94]

Green Frog,
This thread is a fun read! All but the covid part, hope you are feeling better.

 

[SS336]

Shot my first 2700 in 1971 in Mystic, Ct. My 3 guns were 2.
A S&W M41 and a .45acp WW2 government reworked by some gunsmith which I can't remember. It was a long day, I shot ok but was worn out. I still shoot Bullseye pistol but a 900 indoor winter 22 league.
It's a great sport every shooter should attempt. It is not easy and all about accuracy.

 

[jimmyj]

I have not shot one handed since Bullseye Days

 

[Green Frog]

Green Frog,
This thread is a fun read! All but the covid part, hope you are feeling better.

Thanks for the well wishes. As a matter of fact, I got a negative test for COVID yesterday afternoon. Now if I can just get rid of the after effects and get out to the range!
Froggie

 

[Jim Watson]

A guy here said he shot a M25 because he could not afford to have a 1911 fully accurized when he first got into target shooting. Made it to Master.

 

[Oscar Zulu]

My "agency" (Western States Sheriff's Aero Squadrons), shot a modified bullseye course, 25 yards two handed centerfire and .45. Most used .38 recovers and 1911's. i used a Kimber Match Target and a Model 14 or a 66 for example.
My buddy, who was the best shot in the conference already, decided to up his game a bit. He picked up a .32 semiautomatic, a Pardini I believe. The rules changed after the match, .38 becoming the minimum allowed for the centerfire stage. I supposed you could say he got Askined.

OZ

 

[Jim Watson]

PS Here's a thought: How about a Model 53 with the auxiliary 22 LR cylinder rechambered to the "22 Askins"? It wouldn't be eligible for any known match event and the cost to build and feed it would be prohibitive for any but the most devoted (or insane) experimenter. Then again who among us ever claimed to be totally sane?

Askins said he got the last of Remington's stock of 22 Velo Dog for the project way back then. Fiocchi still catalogs it but can they really deliver?

I have thought an interesting project for a M53 LR cylinder would be .22 Harvey Kay Chuk.