X frame 350 legend question

[steelslaver]

Was wondering if one of the guys that own one would measure the narrowest spot between 2 side by side chambers and the thickness from chamber to outside of cylinder.


The 357 Herret uses a 30-30 case with the shoulder pressed back and then the case walls are fire formed straighter from a 421 base OD to .411, just .010 of taper before having a short near square shoulder to .374. It should work in a cylinder way better than a 22 JET as far as back out goes..

The X frame cylinder is 2.30 long. So it would handle a round 2.35 long with with .05 sticking out the rear. A 357 Herrett case has a .063 thick rim. The legend with clips should be right at .057- .060

I was thinking. Use a chambering reamer and ream a 350 legend cylinder to 357 Herrett so that it headspace on its shoulder and the head had just enough clearance on recoil shield. The base of the 30-30 case is .421 and the Legend is .390m so it would be just .031 difference. You would gain a rim, increase the case capacity. You would have to seat your bullets a to function, as the Herrett's max 0AL is 2.40 and you might have to stay under 2.35 (.05) although the legend calls for a 2.260 max OAL but that may be needed for AR function

The main thing is space between chambers as that would decrease .031" while the chamber to OD wall thickness would only decrease .0155

The Herrett runs 45,000psi max
for a 110 gr at 2,220fps
to a 200gr at 1800fps

It is couple hundred behind the legends claimed velocities at a higher 55,000psi

I wish I could get a blank X frame 5 shot cylinder. LOL

 

[Sevens]

While you are building COOL stuff, make me up an X-frame in .327 Federal Magnum. See if you can stuff more than 8 shots in there!

 

[toroflow1]

It seems that would be like modifying a 357 magnum to only shoot 38 specials. If the 350 Legend has better ballistics than 357 Herrett, the only reason I can see to modify is for nostalgia. This coming from someone who has painstakingly formed .30 Herrett back in the early 80s!

 

[Sevens]

So you're saying he's trying to make the S&W Model 68!

 

[steelslaver]

Getting rid of a long round that needs a clip with a rimmed case. I killed several deer with my 357 Herret contender. First of all if your shooting 158 gr bullets in either your firing hand gun bullets way over their designed velocity and the faster you have them going the more apt they are to come apart. The 200 gr slugs a couple hundred fps isn't going to make much difference. But, depending on cylinder wall thickness there is no reason you could not load Herrets to the same pressure as the legend.

I would much rather get a pilot drilled 5 round cylinder and go with a 308 bullet and use a 220 swift or 225 Winchester semi rimed brass at 60,000 psi

 

[3rdgeargrndrr]

@steelslayer.
I saw you started a thread and started off with “i was wondering”.
Taking out the popcorn and see how this develops.
Mildly disappointed you didnt ask if the cylinder is as long as a 35Rem.

 

[cgt4570]

Being a huge .45-70 fan, I've always admired the Magnum Research BFR.

 

[steelslaver]

@steelslayer.
I saw you started a thread and started off with “i was wondering”.
Taking out the popcorn and see how this develops.
Mildly disappointed you didnt ask if the cylinder is as long as a 35Rem.

I didn't need to ask. I have all the SAMMI spec sheets on my computer and know the length of X frame cylinders.

The X frame 500 and 460 cylinder is only 2.3" long, The 350 should be a bit shorter in the rear for the combine clip and rim thickness. My 500 has .062 rear gauge between cylinder face and recoil shield so max OAL a X frame could handle is 2.36

The OAL on a 35 Remington is 2.5" and the base dia and rim .458 and .460. where the 30-30 case base is .422 and has a real rim. So you would loose a lot more meat in the cylinder walls, not have a rim and need to seat the bullets too deep. Not a good plan.

While I like the 45-70 too it has no advantage on the 460 or 500. and in an X frame it has the problem of a 2.55 OAL. If you deep seated the bullets in the 45-70 case the case capacity advantage would be gone


Of course if you bought a governor and could get a blank cylinder you could go longer, but they are 6 shot cylinders and only 1.75 OD just .004 larger than a N frame cylinder so scrap hot rodding those very far.

The Legends only claim to fame over the 460 and 500 is it holds 7 rounds, which is totally unnecessary for hunting IMHO. The 350 fires a 160 at 2,200 fps and a 180 at 2,100 fps. While the 460 fires a 200 at 2,300fps and the 500 a 300gr at 2,075 fps. No contest other than maybe a few more yards of no hold over need for a dead bang shot.

I love moon clips but they work far better on short stubby rounds like the 9mm and are perfect with the 45ACP. I can see problems with a clip holding 7 2.3" long rounds

An X frame with a Z frame length window so you had a 3" cylinder with a 1.917 OD 5 hole cylinder with offset bolt stop notches.

 

[ruggyh]

...... First of all if your shooting 158 gr bullets in either your firing hand gun bullets way over their designed velocity and the faster you have them going the more apt they are to come apart. ........

or just use copper monolithic constructed bullets

Why not just machine a new cylinder, cylinder design is not that complex- use the 350 Legand extractor.

If want to borrow an x-frame cylinder (460 or 500 ) send me a PM

 

[steelslaver]

I have a X frame. 500 mag. I also have some pieces of Heat treated 4140. If I were to make a cylinder it would be for a 5 shot so I could make a hot rod 30 cal.

Yes, I believe I could make a good cylinder. First by machining HT 4140 to the right OD and length then cutting in recess for exactor and drilling and reaming for yoke, gas ring and extractor. Once the extractor was installed in the blank cylinder you could install blank in frame. Make a rod that just fit down the bore with a sharp point on end, Then stick it in barrel cock gun and tap end of rod, do that at every position on ratchet. Then drill and ream each punch spot to say .250. Then reinstall cylinder with a coat of Prussian Blue around when stop notches go. Machine say 1/4 of the rod to .250 and place the with rod in barrel and with muzzle up slowly cock the gun. the rod would slide in cylinder and lock in place and the line the cylinder stop was making in the blue would end right where you need to cut a stop notch. Use a keyway cutter the same width and radius as cylinder stop. The a small end mill to make the lead ins.

 

[Imissedagain]

Hot Rod
5 Shot
30 Cal

Have Gun
Will Travel
Votes: YES!

 

[3rdgeargrndrr]

I didn't need to ask. I have all the SAMMI spec sheets on my computer and know the length of X frame cylinders.

The X frame 500 and 460 cylinder is only 2.3" long, The 350 should be a bit shorter in the rear for the combine clip and rim thickness. My 500 has .062 rear gauge between cylinder face and recoil shield so max OAL a X frame could handle is 2.36

The OAL on a 35 Remington is 2.5" and the base dia and rim .458 and .460. where the 30-30 case base is .422 and has a real rim. So you would loose a lot more meat in the cylinder walls, not have a rim and need to seat the bullets too deep. Not a good plan.

While I like the 45-70 too it has no advantage on the 460 or 500. and in an X frame it has the problem of a 2.55 OAL. If you deep seated the bullets in the 45-70 case the case capacity advantage would be gone


Of course if you bought a governor and could get a blank cylinder you could go longer, but they are 6 shot cylinders and only 1.75 OD just .004 larger than a N frame cylinder so scrap hot rodding those very far.

The Legends only claim to fame over the 460 and 500 is it holds 7 rounds, which is totally unnecessary for hunting IMHO. The 350 fires a 160 at 2,200 fps and a 180 at 2,100 fps. While the 460 fires a 200 at 2,300fps and the 500 a 300gr at 2,075 fps. No contest other than maybe a few more yards of no hold over need for a dead bang shot.

I love moon clips but they work far better on short stubby rounds like the 9mm and are perfect with the 45ACP. I can see problems with a clip holding 7 2.3" long rounds

An X frame with a Z frame length window so you had a 3" cylinder with a 1.917 OD 5 hole cylinder with offset bolt stop notches.

Oh Im well aware the 35Rem is too long.
BUT
With your reputation of very nice and crazy builds, I just was hoping to see you do it!!

 

[steelslaver]

Another discussion about the legend is what got me thinking. It has been a while since I did any real jobs so my gun account has gone empty. I doubt I will be tearing any X frames apart. There are not may beater ones around cheap.

I will probably stick with my model 53 jet and XP100s in 221 Fireball and 6mm Remington hot rod handgun. I currently have a Ruger Old Army in the shop. It is going to get a rifle stock and a 16 1/2 barrel. A cap and ball revolving carbine to go with my S&W 45 colt revolving carbine.

 

[MNruss]

I think we need photos of both of these

 

[steelslaver]

Here is the revolving 45 colt carbine, made using a Brazilian frame. Pictured with a 5 screw, pinned and recessed 45 colt.

I will do the Old Army in a similar fashion, but the fore arm will have a gap in front of frame to operate the ramming lever. I cut a dovetails in bottom of barrel to attach forearm nuts and the piece that holds ramming lever in place. The grip frame will get drilled and tapped for a rod to hold stock.

People always worry aboutt the Barrel to cylinder gap, butt it is a non issue as your elbow is down and under the bottom of the frame. I have never felt anything on my arm and have fired several hundred rounds from it. You do feel a bit prickling on your face as it is closer to the frame than normal with a revolver. I always wear shooting glasses.

 

[keithhagan]

Was wondering if one of the guys that own one would measure the narrowest spot between 2 side by side chambers and the thickness from chamber to outside of cylinder.


The 357 Herret uses a 30-30 case with the shoulder pressed back and then the case walls are fire formed straighter from a 421 base OD to .411, just .010 of taper before having a short near square shoulder to .374. It should work in a cylinder way better than a 22 JET as far as back out goes..

The X frame cylinder is 2.30 long. So it would handle a round 2.35 long with with .05 sticking out the rear. A 357 Herrett case has a .063 thick rim. The legend with clips should be right at .057- .060

I was thinking. Use a chambering reamer and ream a 350 legend cylinder to 357 Herrett so that it headspace on its shoulder and the head had just enough clearance on recoil shield. The base of the 30-30 case is .421 and the Legend is .390m so it would be just .031 difference. You would gain a rim, increase the case capacity. You would have to seat your bullets a to function, as the Herrett's max 0AL is 2.40 and you might have to stay under 2.35 (.05) although the legend calls for a 2.260 max OAL but that may be needed for AR function

The main thing is space between chambers as that would decrease .031" while the chamber to OD wall thickness would only decrease .0155

The Herrett runs 45,000psi max
for a 110 gr at 2,220fps
to a 200gr at 1800fps

It is couple hundred behind the legends claimed velocities at a higher 55,000psi

I wish I could get a blank X frame 5 shot cylinder. LOL

Until you get someone who has a proper measurement, I can do the trigonometry for you.

If you know/measure the center-center distance on the charge holes in your 5 shot X frame, I can tell you what the theoretical center-center distance on the charge holes in the 7 shot cylinder of the 350 should be, assuming they are chambered on the same centerline. Then, the minimum wall-thickness would be the center-center distance - the diameter of the charge hole (e.g. 0.4233" for 30-30 per SAAMI).

Based on my math, you can plug that in to the formula, below:

y = x * (cos(450/7) / cos(54)) ≈ x*0.73816710682


y = center-center on the 7 shot
x = center-center on the 5 shot

cosine is computed in degrees

I've been wanting to do something similar, but completely straight-wall, like a 10mm herrett. Even using full-length 30-30 brass, with typical 10mm seating depth (and FP bullets) that would leave an OAL of only 2.307". Would need to send the barrel off to have it bored and re-rifled.

 

[steelslaver]

Hey, your right. Great thinking. I will do that and report back with the answer to my own question.


Because the X frames use a shroud you would just need a piece of 10mm barrel and machine the outside to match an original barrel. I would do the muzzle end so you could use a wrench to tighten.

The original barrel on them and other shrouded barrels could be removed by sticking a piece of brass square stock in bore and filling with low temp solder.

 

[keithhagan]

Hey, your right. Great thinking. I will do that and report back with the answer to my own question.


Because the X frames use a shroud you would just need a piece of 10mm barrel and machine the outside to match an original barrel. I would do the muzzle end so you could use a wrench to tighten.

The original barrel on them and other shrouded barrels could be removed by sticking a piece of brass square stock in bore and filling with low temp solder.

Oh, is that right? For some reason, I thought the 350 was different and had a solid barrel.

 

[steelslaver]

I am not sure about that. I thought you were talking about using a 460 or 500 frame.


But rather even if it is a one piece barrel it could be done. Take the barrel and cut off the shank then borre and ream the rest say .600. then turn turn a piece of 10mm barrel so one end has a new X frame shank and the rest is .600 and silver solder it on.

This is how I made a 32 cal barrel, to make a K frame 327

 

[steelslaver]

The chambers on a X frame are on about a .560 radius

That means a 1.12 dia circle with circumference of 3.517

divided by 5 it is .703 and by 7 it is .502

A 500 has an outside wall thickness of .100. If the 350 uses the same radius it would have about .236 outside wall and at least .11 space between the chambers. Actually a bit more as the closest spot between the chamber is outside the radius of chamber centers.

Your idea of using a 30-30 case and a 40 cal bullet is interesting as there would be no shoulder.