Unusual occurrence at the Toyota dealer

[BC38]

Many of you are still getting ripped off. Tire rotation is an anachronism. You don't need it, unless you have unusual tire wear. After which, you get the problem fixed and shouldn't need tire rotation again.

Yeah, ignore the recommendations of those silly ol' tire manufacturers. What do they know about tires? The drive wheels don't ever slip or spin more than the non-drive wheels, and cornering forces don't cause the front steer wheels to wear different than the fixed rears either. None of that causes different wear patterns on front versus rear tires.
Wanna buy a bridge?

 

[Gamecock]

Sorry. I should have said, "Gleefully getting ripped off."

The purpose of rotation is to spread UNEVEN tire wear around. If you don't have uneven tire wear, WHY are you rotating your tires?

 

[Muley Gil]

When I started driving in 1971, my dad, who did all of his own car maintenance until he was well into his 80s, told me to change the oil and filter every 5000 miles. All of his vehicles went 150K or more without major engine work. One of my vehicles went over 230K without engine work.

 

[Puller]

Lottery tickets = poor man's tax

 

[Oldengineer]

I don't own brand spanking new vehicles. Never could afford that 20% (or more) loss in value the day you drove it off the lot. My pet peeve these days has been the factory recommended oil change vs what is really necessary.

I have 2 family members that are in the auto service industry, both for a long time and I do trust their advice...so my 2018 Ford Taurus (wifes car...less than 23,000 on the clock) and my 2013 Chevy Silverado 1500 with 123,500 on the clock...both use synthetic oil and both get changed at 6000 miles..which is actually in the service manual for the vehicle.

Both of my relatives have said......you are doing it wrong...go back to the tried and true for years....change oil and filter every 3000 miles!

They both tell me that while massive, great leaps have been made in oils, mainly synthetic....NO CHANGES have been made in oil FILTERS...so yea....your oil may last 6000 but your filter is done at 3000.

Since retiring on Jan 1, 2020...neither vehicle has been driven more than 4000 per year, with the wifes car less than 3000 so I'm just changing oil and filter once per year and so far no adverse effects have been noticed.

I use a decent local shop for oil changes (not a dealership) and the 6 qt, synthetic + filter for the truck, runs right around $60.00 after veterans discount, senior citizens discount.

Don't really know if filters have not changed over the years, but costs dictate to me to take advantage of the strides made in oil quality, so I'm not doing the old 3000 changes for now.

Just my two cents

I spent decades as a "engine engineer" for Fomoco. I did both design and development, some on dynamometers. This issue is oil oxidation…..it combines with o2 and turns into mayonnaise. Not very easy to pump it around and you create wear. Synthetic oils are a very complex hydrocarbon chain that doesn't easily oxidize. That's why it can go 10K miles. Filters actually get better with use because they become more restrictive. FAt oil is bad oil.

Tom H.

 

[tlawler]

Dealerships typically charge $100/hour or more for servicing and have done for some time. I'm surprised that you are surprised.

$100 an hour is cheap. In my industry, that was the going rate back in the early 2000's.

 

[Oldengineer]

A follow-on thought: in the quest for ever improving fuel efficiency, auto makers worked hard on engine controls that allowed for reduced idle speed. This translated directly to the FE label on the sticker. A lower idle speed means lower idle airflow of which the positive crankcase ventilation (PCV) is a major component. Less idle speed = less idle airflow = less PCV flow. Here's the point; PCV is necessary for oil life. I recall Toyota getting in trouble with early engine wear due to **** oil, long drain intervals, and insufficient PCV flow.

The bottom line is there is absolutely no economy in buying cheap mineral oil. Mobil 1 or equivalent or you are asking for trouble down the road.

 

[charlie sherrill]

Long ago I discovered the hard way that taking a car to a dealership for service, other than recall or warranty work, is something to be avoided like an STD.

Unless it's a recall after the warranty runs out, find you a good shade tree who will do the work for much less.

 

[charlie sherrill]

I don't own brand spanking new vehicles. Never could afford that 20% (or more) loss in value the day you drove it off the lot. My pet peeve these days has been the factory recommended oil change vs what is really necessary.

I have 2 family members that are in the auto service industry, both for a long time and I do trust their advice...so my 2018 Ford Taurus (wifes car...less than 23,000 on the clock) and my 2013 Chevy Silverado 1500 with 123,500 on the clock...both use synthetic oil and both get changed at 6000 miles..which is actually in the service manual for the vehicle.

Both of my relatives have said......you are doing it wrong...go back to the tried and true for years....change oil and filter every 3000 miles!

They both tell me that while massive, great leaps have been made in oils, mainly synthetic....NO CHANGES have been made in oil FILTERS...so yea....your oil may last 6000 but your filter is done at 3000.

Since retiring on Jan 1, 2020...neither vehicle has been driven more than 4000 per year, with the wifes car less than 3000 so I'm just changing oil and filter once per year and so far no adverse effects have been noticed.

I use a decent local shop for oil changes (not a dealership) and the 6 qt, synthetic + filter for the truck, runs right around $60.00 after veterans discount, senior citizens discount.

Don't really know if filters have not changed over the years, but costs dictate to me to take advantage of the strides made in oil quality, so I'm not doing the old 3000 changes for now.

Just my two cents

I must be lucky. I change my synthetic oil every 15,000 mile and I have 230,000 on my ride with no problems.

 

[Rustyt1953]

We have been using the same Honda dealership for our scheduled maintenance and minor repairs for over 20 years. They are competitively priced, accommodating, expedient and do quality work.

No complaints.

 

[charlie sherrill]

When in warranty I go to the dealer. It costs me nothing and the factory pays them to do it. When the warranty runs out I go to "Slick", our local shade tree who can do about 90% of what needs to be done for about 25% of what a new car dealership charges (and he still makes a good honest living) and the 10% he can't do I get done somewhere besides a franchise or a new dealership. You have to shop around and ask questions. The dealerships don't want you to know, but most of their profits come from warranty work and folks that don't know any better, not from new car sales. Their biggest profits from sales are from used car sales anyway.

 

[BC38]

Sorry. I should have said, "Gleefully getting ripped off."

The purpose of rotation is to spread UNEVEN tire wear around. If you don't have uneven tire wear, WHY are you rotating your tires?

OK, let me explain my comments in more explicit terms.

Front tires steer. When the vehicle is moving and you turn the front wheels the weight and thrust of the vehicle is transferred to the edges of the front tires on the side facing the outside of the turn. Additionally your suspension geometry changes as the springs on the outside of the turn compress and the springs on the inside of the turn decompress. This creates some "scrubbing" or sliding of the tires. Not a whole lot, but a measurable amount. This happens EVERY time you steer the car, and it creates additional wear on the outside edges of the front tires.
When you accelerate, the rear tires in a rear-wheel drive car, or the front tires in a front-wheel drive car will also experience a little bit of slippage. This slippage wears down the tread.
So, in a front wheel drive car you have both cornering forces AND acceleration-induced slippage accelerating the tread wear of the front tires, and you have neither of those factors creating additional wear on the rear tires.
In a rear wheel drive car you have the cornering forces putting additional wear on the edges of the tread of the front tires, and you have acceleration-induced slippage creating additional wear on the rear tires.
Additionally, when you brake hard, or brake at high speed (like exiting the freeway) the front tires do 60%-70% of the braking because more of the vehicle weight "shifts" to the front wheels. This means the front tire treads are being subjected to more "scrubbing" force against the pavement than the rears.
As a general rule, in a front wheel drive car, if you never rotate the tires, the front tires will wear out 10%-20% faster than the rear tires.
In a rear wheel drive car, your driving style is a much bigger factor in determining which set wears out first - fronts or rears. If you're a "peal out from every stoplight" driver, your rears are likely to wear out first. If you're a "tires squalling around every corner" driver, the fronts may wear out first.
No matter what your driving style, and regardless of whether your car is rear-wheel or front-wheel drive, these tread wear factors and forces are NOT balanced or equal - EVER. Therefore, over time, the tread wear will not be balanced or equal either. You may not notice it, but they will wear unevenly - guaranteed. That is why you rotate your tires to get the maximum life from them.
Unless you drive like a little old lady on her way to church 100% of the time, and you never get on the freeway, your tires are not going to all wear out at the same time if you never have them rotated.
This is a fact based on simple physics. Any and EVERY tire manufacturer will tell you the exact same thing. Rotating your tires every 10k miles or so is essential to keeping the wear even and thereby maximizing tire life.

 

[Gamecock]

Rotating your tires every 10k miles or so is essential to keeping the wear even and thereby maximizing tire life.

Not going to argue with that, though I'm not convinced it is needed (having put hundreds of thousands of miles on cars over 50 years).

There are many who reflexively rotate their tires every 3,000 miles with every oil change. That is absurd.

 

[Gamecock]

Lottery tickets = poor man's tax

My oldest brother describes the lottery as a "tax on the mathematically challenged."

 

[djohns6]

Not going to argue with that, though I'm not convinced it is needed (having put hundreds of thousands of miles on cars over 50 years).

There are many who reflexively rotate their tires every 3,000 miles with every oil change. That is absurd.

I usually rotate mine every other oil change . That's 10k miles .

 

[soFlaNative]

Been using a local shop for years but went to Auto Nation when the battery died still under warranty on my Frontier. Still had the coupon for $49.95 oil change (5 qt. synth.) and tire rotation so I kept the scheduled appointment but marked the tires before I left home.
Hour and a half at the dealer I'm told job finished, checked under the hood to make sure filler cap was replaced and during the walk around, Surprise! tires untouched. Hadn't yet paid so raised a bit of civil hell, took another hour and a half to get right.
Wasn't too happy esp. since there was no Bar&Grill within walking distance to kill time.
Tires have been rotated every 15,000 miles since I've been driving along with about 10% under the max cold air pressure with excellent results.

 

[Muley Gil]

Stopped by this morning to make an appointment for routine maintenance, usually there's about a 2 week lead time to get appointment. Service manager asks if I want to do it now. This has never happened before, he said there were some no shows and he had a couple of techs that needed something to do. Sure thing, especially since most of what I was getting done is free anyway if you purchased there. Bought a lottery ticket on the way home, maybe I'll be a billionaire Friday.

While you were at the Toyota dealership, did you happen to see that purty lady in the red sweater from their commercials? I'd buy a car from her!

 

[dave1918a2]

Never had a new car in My life. Grew up in a Texaco station My Dad owned. Lot different now. Since I retired I change oil and filter twice a year. Sometimes 900 miles, sometimes 2500 miles. I go to Walmart. $19.98 labor and I go inside and buy the oil and filter I want. I shop while the work is being done and get a text when it's complete. Load up and go home. LOF cost near $50.

 

[BC38]

Not going to argue with that, though I'm not convinced it is needed (having put hundreds of thousands of miles on cars over 50 years).

There are many who reflexively rotate their tires every 3,000 miles with every oil change. That is absurd.

Yeah, rotating them every 3000 miles is overkill, especially if you are paying for it. If the tires came with free balance checks and rotations, and you're getting your oil changed at the same place you bought your tires, getting them rotated every oil change can't hurt, but I wouldn't pay to have it done that often.
Doing it every 6k is more than enough. Even if everything about your suspension and alignment is 100% in spec and perfect, if you don't rotate them at all you are guaranteed to need to replace one pair (front pair or rear pair) before the other pair is worn out.
That's my experience from nearly 50 years driving, 100's of thousands of miles, and also having done almost all of the maintenance and repair work on the 40-some odd vehicles I've owned.

 

[BC38]

My oldest brother describes the lottery as a "tax on the mathematically challenged."

LOL, I thought about making that same comment, but refrained since there might be some lotto players here who might be offended.