The 10mm Fraud

[Old Corp]

Think some of the less-than-stellar rep that the 10mm gets is from the proliferation of the 10 LITE ammo that has been around so long.
My PD's first auto was the S&W M1076 in 1989/90. Issue ammo was the Federal, or sometimes Remington 180 gr JHP at ~950 fps.
This was before the .40 S&W was even born, but 10 LITE essentially produced ballistics that the .40 would have when it came out a few short years later.

The 10mm is one of several calibers I have that I'd not even bother owning if I didn't handload. Using good published loading data the 10mm can be loaded to it's original higher performance levels before the 'LITE' concept was adopted.

I still enjoy shooting my 1076 on occasion, but really prefer my Colt Delta Elite SS.

 

[Sgt. Buzzard]

I blame Hollywood and the FBI for all the 10mm. trouble. First that guy Sonny on Miami Vice was the only person known to have more than one magazine for the Bren. Then some FBI guy thought a 10mm would be cool.

Well it turns out the SA's aren't really into guns or recoil. Qualifications plummet.

So the wonks start downloading and come up with a .40 cal. Then go out on bid for someone to manufacture a suitable. 40 cal. The FBI goes all in and starts a rush to go bigger and better. All along nobody noticed their HRT and SWAT boys are still packing .45 ACP's. It's all about spending tax dollars.

 

[Farmer17]

The 10 mm has nearly died out several times. The Bren 10 had trouble from the beginning, but the royalty of law-enforcement, the FBI adopted the cartridge and it became slightly more popular for a while. Then they dropped it, and it nearly died again. Later people started buying it again and then, for some reason in the last few years, lots of manufacturers have been turning out guns for it. Many have tried to handload it more powerful and call it the equal to a .41 Magnum but the shooting community will call BS really quickly on something that’s not truth. Most people are now realizing that it is what it is, a little more powerful and flat shooting than the 45 ACP and it’s chambered in light weight guns that hold lots of ammo. In that role, it really has no competition in semi auto mass produced pistols. You can get a more powerful semi automatic handgun in the Desert Eagle but it’s definitely no high capacity lightweight but with the 10 mm’s new popularity I think we’ll see some improvement in the ammo in the next few years, and the guns.

 

[10Mad]

The 10mm has killed at least one polar bear that I know of.

And that single incident is the primary launch for the 10mm hysteria. Sales of Glock 20s would have been in the low hundreds had that poor bear gone a different way that day.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I blame Hollywood and the FBI for all the 10mm. trouble. First that guy Sonny on Miami Vice was the only person known to have more than one magazine for the Bren. Then some FBI guy thought a 10mm would be cool.

Well it turns out the SA's aren't really into guns or recoil. Qualifications plummet.

So the wonks start downloading and come up with a .40 cal. Then go out on bid for someone to manufacture a suitable. 40 cal. The FBI goes all in and starts a rush to go bigger and better. All along nobody noticed their HRT and SWAT boys are still packing .45 ACP's. It's all about spending tax dollars.

I used to think the .40 was developed as a downloaded 10mm too because that's the common belief. That was until I spoke to someone who was around during the development of the .40 and it was not because of the 10mm, it was developed independently. It had nothing to do with the recoil of the 10mm. The only thing they have in common is the bullet diameter.

 

[kingrj]

Although I do not own one I am sure that the 10mm auto in a large full sized gun (1911 with fully supported chamber or a 4506) can be loaded to 1200 fps with 200 grain bullets. I shoot .45 Super loads in my 4506 with a chronographed 1230 fps with 200 grain cast and 1040 fps with 255 grain cast. No case problems, no function problems...

 

[LVSteve]

Lately, I've been seeing quite a few ammo tests of 10mm and 40 S&W where the velocities aren't getting close to what it says on the box. Nearly all the testers used Glocks. I'm wondering if not only is the ammo not as advertised, but maybe Glock are turning out guns with slow barrels.

I know chronos vary, but when I see a guy test a 40 S&W load and it's way slow and doesn't expand, then two minutes later he has a 9mm round that does what it says on the box, I'm prepared to believe that his instrument is working AOK.

 

[loc n load]

10mm

I have been shooting and loading for the 10mm since it’s inception. I too was one of the unfortunates that’s ordered a Bren Ten, then ended up shooting the Colt Delta Elite.
When Glock introduced the model 20, I grabbed one and have shot & carried it ever since.
I have a bunch of 10mm pistols and three 10mm revolvers. My EDC is a G20 loaded with Federal 200 gr HST’s that clock at 1104 out of my pistol.
Can I load 200 gr bullets up to the “Norma standard” of 1200 plus fps? Yes I can, and have. But what do I gain with the additional 100 fps? Nothing earth shaking.
I have shot several big bodied deer and a bunch of Texas hogs with 200 gr 10mm loads, and those loads when placed properly most definitely delivered the goods.
I was on deck during the 80’s & 90’s when the FBI was looking at the 10mm and I know what went on there ( there is a lot of disinformAtion about that subject) and I know how & why the 40 S&W came to be.
I recently tested some of the latest and greatest factory 200 gr loads and the one’s I tested ran close to 1100 fps in my G20 & Smith 610.
As pointed out in previous posts, a lot of these manufacturers are way too optimistic about their MV numbers.
I also tested a Brand that had a 200 gr hard cast bullet that was rated at 1300 fps out of a G20. It did not make 1300, or 1200, it ran at 1150 fps out of my G20.
As noted, I have been a 10mm user since it all began. There are more handguns and ammo for the 10mm than ever before.
I shoot primarily 200 gr bullets in my 10’s. I know what the factory loads produce and if I feel that I need more horse power I head for the loading bench. But truthfully, a 200 gr bullet at or near 1100fps has pretty well covered all the bases for me.

 

[Echo40]

Few companies actually load 10mm Auto up to the fabled "200grs @ 1200fps" specifications of the old Norma loads and why should they?
After all, such loads have yet to be proven to actually even existed since all tests of vintage boxes of Norma ammo have fallen short of what was printed on the box. Besides, most shooters don't actually enjoy shooting such hard-kicking rounds, so why should the average ammo manufacturer load their 10mm Auto ammo that hot when the average shooter cares more about bragging that they own/shoot 10mm Auto than actually shooting full-power ammo?
Furthermore, let's face it, most commercially available 10mm Auto Pistols are just modified .45 ACP Pistols which really aren't designed to handle such high pressures. There's a reason why those who handload 10mm Auto to 200grs @ 1200fps often recommended modifications to existing 10mm Auto Pistols such as aftermarket barrels with full chamber support, heavier recoil springs, recoil buffers, or even compensators.

So yeah, if you really want full-power 10mm Auto loads, then you have to either handload or buy boutique ammo by manufacturers such as Buffalobore, Underwood, or Cor-Bon. Also, you'd probably better get some heavier recoil springs for your pistol too, because they're probably tuned for your typical 10mm Lite loads, not full-power stuff.

Unfortunately, most 10mm Auto ammo is just .40 S&W ammo in a longer case that manages to get slightly higher fps from chronograph tests by virtue of the fact that most 10mm Pistols have 5-6" Barrels while .40 S&W Pistols barrels are more commonly 4-4½".

Truthfully, pretty much all factory ammo save for 9mm Parabellum and .45 ACP are downloaded these days. Yes, even .40 S&W got watered down a bit over time thanks to all the cheap .40 S&W Pistols which were merely modified 9mms, sound familiar?
Fortunately, factory loaded ammo of all major Duty Cartridges are sufficiently powerful to handle the majority threats one might encounter in North America, so unless you're living in Alaska or something, you're probably fine carrying whatever you please. Sure, some cartridges are more powerful than others, but a critical hit from any of them will have the same result, hence why so many folks have hopped onboard the 9mm Bandwagon. It works! It doesn't mean you have to carry it — I'm still a .40 S&W guy, myself — it just means that the race for small arms supremacy was rightfully settled once Jacketed Hallowpoint technology had been perfected and ammo manufacturers started designing all of their ammunition to achieve FBI Specifications, leaving everything more or less equal. So the only thing you're actually choosing when you select a duty cartridge these days is how big of a hole you wish to poke in a badguy and how deep you want that hole to go.

 

[Kinman]

What is beyond debate is that mass produced and marketed 10, and 40, are very watered down from what they should be.

As with the original intent of the FBI when the 10mm was first issued there was a huge cry from all the folks used to 9mm and .38 special so....the 10mm was downloaded seriously from its potential that could and does compete with the .357. Eventually the .40 was the settling point, I shoot tons of .40 and like it in a couple of different frames from .40 shorty Glock compensated to HK USP Tactical suppressed which remains the most accurate semi auto firearm I have ever owned or shot with a slight nod to my Model 52 as the most accurate handgun. My wife is scary with that thing, I would not want her taking her time shooting at me while popping her chewing gum. I know an ex-FBI gal whose husband loads .500 S&W loads for her and brother she is accurate with that thing pushing big lead projectiles at low velocities. I'm an advocate of large caliber projectiles at relatively low speed with a shooter comfortable and confident in their ability. Pretty tough to argue with a gaping chest wound...I'm right on the verge of messing around with a 10mm, one is available to me. It would be tough to budge me off my favorite .44 special carry piece.

 

[David Sinko]

My Glock 35 .40 S&W shoots a 150 gr. JHP at 1319 FPS using published load data. This will beat most .357 Magnum loads out of a 4" barrel. The fired brass is fine.

I have loaded 10mm ammo that shot a 200 gr. bullet out a Glock 29 at an honest 1200 FPS, using an aftermarket barrel. I was surprised by that velocity out of the short barrel. But that particular Glock was unreliable and the owner got rid of it.

The .45 ACP will do a 250 gr. bullet at 950 FPS easily out of a revolver. I didn't think a semiauto would be able to equal that but eventually I got it with the Glock 21 and Springfield XDM. I would rather have the 250 at 950 than the 200 at 1200 so I never owned a 10mm.

 

[T. McIntyre]

true velocity

Interesting subject, and responses.

First I will make a full disclaimer. I produce my own ammo, and own a small custom ammo company.

The actual velocities I record, and advertise are true velocities, taken from actual firearms used during testing.

For example. I have a certain 9mm hardcast load. It's listed velocity is 1,100 FPS. That is an average. During development the ammo was shot in various guns with barrels as short as 3"s. and as long as 5.3"s.

In Glock 19s it averaged 1072 FPS.
In Glock 17s it averaged 1100 FPS.
In Glock 34s it averaged 1120 FPS.
In CZ 75 it averaged 1109 FPS.

Most people are not carrying a G34, and G17s are a standard service size 9mm, so using that as a baseline was a reasonable.

Another load, a hardcast .45 Colt wide nose Keith SWC does exactly 900 FPS from my 4&5/8ths" Flattop Blackhawk.

I know that is a shorter barrel length, but it is the only barrel length I have on hand, so that is what is used for the velocity number. I was told by a customer I trust, that the load does a bit over 950 in his 7.5" gun, but since I have not personally tested it, I cannot se that.

In 10mm,

It is the same situation.

I have actually spent an incredible amount of time working with the 10mm trying to find the blend of reliability, accuracy and velocity. What I have found is that first off, when you use bullets past the 200 grain margin, reliability is questionable. Yes, there are lots of stories of " I have shot and use a 220 grain and it works fine". But I am speaking of 100% reliability. Not just for a couple of magazines but for hundreds of rounds, over and over. Plus being able to do so when conditions are sub optimal, such as a compromised grip (like you just tripped because you are backpedaling and something is trying to eat you).

Long story short, I settled on a 200 grain bullet. I backed it off to 1150 FPS to get the absolute reliability that was critical. At 1200, the reliability was not there, and in shooting thousands of rounds, I wanted a load that people can both hunt with or use for trail defense. I ended up finding the "Goldilocks spot of accuracy, reliability and velocity at 1150 FPS with a 200 grain hardcast.

Now the 40s are another story. I have worked for over a year on what is essentially a +P 40. A Poly-Coated 170 SWC at 1200 FPS.

But drifting back to the original post, I actually did some chrono testing of some other brands 10mm, and found that as the OP stated, the advertised numbers were not living up to what the chrono was saying. Some were actually pretty close, but I don't think people read the labels as some of the 10mm stuff was not as fast as the 40 I was working on.



I will throw on some more pics, as most of us like them.

I ran the .40 load through both the G22 and a Glock 10mm Gen 5.

I suspect that because many consumers may only look at velocity numbers when making their buying choice, it may affect what number gets printed and why sometimes the advertised hype does not meet reality.

On another note

I have actually read in a comments section from a customer who bought a 20 round box of ammo from a different company. He said how much he loved the ammo. He stated he loaded up his magazine with 15+1 in his pistol. He fired the remaining rounds, and he was good to go. That was his reliability testing.

As a person who is a lifelong outdoorsman, I have a different view on reliability testing, especially since I spend a good bit of time hiking in country where we have both Black bears, Grizzly bears, wolves mountain lions and other animals that don't play well with others.

If your gun is not reliable and accurate with the ammo you choose, the rest will not matter.

 

[David Sinko]

Interesting subject, and responses.


Long story short, I settled on a 200 grain bullet. I backed it off to 1150 FPS to get the absolute reliability that was critical. At 1200, the reliability was not there, and in shooting thousands of rounds, I wanted a load that people can both hunt with or use for trail defense. I ended up finding the "Goldilocks spot of accuracy, reliability and velocity at 1150 FPS with a 200 grain hardcast.

So how does the extra 50 FPS compromise reliability? I'm assuming you're just using less of the same powder and everything else is the same? What reliability problems were you experiencing?

 

[Autonomous]

T. McIntyre, thank you for generously sharing your proprietary work.

I arrived at the same 200gr 10mm conclusion as you but in a less systematic manner. Just by scouring the web for others' anecdotes, over 200gr 10mm loads seem to show less reliability than 200gr and lighter.

 

[Rule3]

On another forum the topic of 10mm vs 45 is going on and on. But there is link to Paul Harrell video. I do not watch much You Tube stuff but he is pretty good and can shoot!


[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBkjdutVmFA&ab_channel=PaulHarrell[/ame]

 

[T. McIntyre]

So how does the extra 50 FPS compromise reliability? I'm assuming you're just using less of the same powder and everything else is the same? What reliability problems were you experiencing?

First, excuse the typos in my initial post, I didn't proofread, as I needed to take my kids and the dog for a hike this morning.



To answer your question/s.

The recoil and magazine springs have to be working together. Timing just right. That is a major factor.

The produced load runs at 1150 FPS.

In testing, I produced a bunch of ammo that ran 1200 FPS, and some at 1225. I did not have any issues with shooting it. It did require a strong 2-handed grip, as recoil was as to be expected with such a load. I have been shooting large bore revolvers for 30+ years along with a lot of time shooting heavy loads through semi auto pistols, so I am familiar with the such things.

That said, as part of the process of developing a commercial load, I recruited a couple people who were hunters and handgun owners, but not really big time handgun shooters. In having them shoot the heavier 1200-1225 FPS loads, they would occasionally have malfunctions of various types.

Starting out and with good instruction, initially they were fine, but it did not take long before they would tire, lose focus on fundamentals and then malfunctions would happen. That was with 2 hands.

With 1 hand, using the heavy loads, it was terrible. I was essentially trying to see if they could shoot the load sitting on their butt, one handed, in an awkward position. They had a very hard time controlling the pistols, and it was obvious that this was not a good load for them.

After a good bit of T&E, I came to the sweet spot of a 200 grain bullet at 1150 FPS. Using a proper 2-handed grip, the average shooter, with a little practice could make fast, repeated shots/hits on target.

Using a 1handed grip, while not blazing fast as far as time between shots (as compared to a 2 handed grip), they were able to control the gun and still have a reliable platform.

Since the ammo was not designed for me, but for the consumer who may be a guy going to Montana, Idaho, Wyoming or Alaska, and wants a gun for bear protection, or is a handgun hunter, the 1150 FPS with a 200 grain hardcast was the Goldilocks spot of accuracy, reliability, and speed.

There is always a sort of "tipping over point" and for me, I noted that I could put more rounds into an A zone in 2 seconds with the 1150 FPS load than I could with the 1200 FPS load. I might be able to get the same amount of shots (sometimes) off in the same 2 seconds, but the accuracy was just not comparable.

Along the same lines, I have a heavy .45 ACP +P load that I make and carry a lot in bear country. It is a 250 grain hardcast at 925 FPS.

It is a personal favorite for a number of reasons. For one, I cut my teeth on the .45 ACP and have killed all manner of game with it from jackrabbits up to cow elk.

Just like the 10mm, I have made a hotter version of this load, but the sweet spot of total reliability, velocity and accuracy was 925 FPS. I have run it in everything from various 1911s, S&W 4506, Performance Center 4563 (The most awesome 3rd Gen ever made!) Glock 21s, and an HK USP among others.

I looked at a number of the loads factories offered and was never satisfied, so I decided I would make, then offer my own. It offers what is very similar to the very early .45 Colt loads in an auto pistol. I have total confidence in it, plus when I am on a hiking trip in MT, and decide to go into town, I can use the same gun/same load. A 1911 covers both.

Back to the original question of the 50 FPS. Yes, 50 FPS can make a significant difference in terms of reliability for many people who are not experienced shooters. Not everyone will have a vice-like grip and control recoil like a dedicated competition shooter or someone who carried a gun for a living for decades.

Unfortunately many will still just go with what is fastest, thinking that is the best product for them, even though they may be buying a product that may not be the most reliable.

 

[T. McIntyre]

On another forum the topic of 10mm vs 45 is going on and on. But there is link to Paul Harrell video. I do not watch much You Tube stuff but he is pretty good and can shoot!


Personal Protection: 10mm vs .45 ACP - YouTube

I watched a couple minutes of it. He seems like a pretty decent guy. I don't understand why he would opt for a 180-185 grain projectile in a 45 ACP. Outside of semi wadcutters, I see no reason to go with such a light bullet, unless you are using a very short barrel, such as a Colt Officer's ACP and are concerned that a standard 230 JHP will not open up.

What forum is the 10mm-45 debate going on?

I have noted that in the past it is generally a lopsided debate where people stack the deck using figures that skew results. Such as saying the 6.5 Creedmoor is superior to the 30-06, then show numbers using a 156 grain Berger 6.5 bullet, and a .30 cal 155 grain Hornady round nose, where the BCs are biased entirely in favor of the 6.5.

If they showed a .30 cal 245 grain Berger with a G1 BC of .807 versus the 6.5 156 grain with a G1 BC of .679, suddenly the old 30-06 stomping on the Creedmoor.

The same thing happens with the 10mm vs .45 debate. You rarely see actual real world loads. Loads that actually work.

I have a customer that shot the 250 grain +P 45 I make into some gel blocks. If I recall correctly it went through something like 3 feet of his blocks (20% blocks, not standard 10%).


When it gets down to it though, either will work fine. I carry and use both and as long as the gun runs reliably, a guy should just choose what he performs best with and makes him happy.

Or get both!

 

[scooter123]

IMO the reason you are seeing de-tuned 10mm loads at 40 S&W power levels is the exact same reason why the 10mm was dropped by the FBI and those police agencies that adopted the 10mm. The reason for that is the full power 10mm is uncomfortable to shoot for the majority of shooters and it reduced their capability for effective rapid fire. Basically there was just too much recoil.

BTW, when I was younger I was a big fan of the 40 S&W and the 45 ACP and really did not find the 40 to be at all harsh as many claimed at the time. Now I have Arthritis in the radial head of both wrists and in both thumbs. Fortunately some changes to my diet have really helped with that condition so I can actually shoot the 40 or 45ACP. However I do limit my shooting with these calibers to just one box of 50 and the remainder of my handgun shooting is either 38 Special or 9mm Parabellum.

 

[SweetMK]

I would rather have the 250 at 950 than the 200 at 1200 so I never owned a 10mm.

Hmmmmmm,,,
would you rather have 500 foot pounds of energy,, or 640 foot pounds of energy,,

Punch your weights and speeds into this calculator,,,


Bullet Energy Calculator | Ballistics101.com

The 10mm will still have more energy than the 45 at only 1100FPS,,

Speed trumps weight,, when you need energy delivered.

You might have to re-visit the 10mm,,,

 

[Farmer17]

I shoot a lot of the 180 grain Sig FP ammo which does 1250 to 1260 ft./s out of my 4 inch M and P 10 mm. I like higher velocity so don’t really care about the 200 and 220 grain ammo and with the Sig ammo I have 100% reliability, excellent accuracy, and very manageable recoil. I don’t reload and the ammo is about 43 bucks per box of 50 and don’t want to spend any more money than that on boutique ammo. I’m happy with it and not really sure why everyone is complaining that the 10 mm doesn’t have enough power, there are lots of other hard kicking cartridges they can buy. A Desert eagle 50 caliber AE might be fun to shoot, ….once.