That’s just insane …. Bolted in … no escape hatch ???
Submarine missing
- Thread starter Chuck24
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OP
At 12,500 ft, where you going to escape to?
riverrat38
US Veteran
From Ocean Gates website, "OceanGate worked with NASA to build the fully-electric submarine. Lithium batteries, which charge overnight, power the sub, Hauge said."
Well, Lithium Batteries, at least nothing can go wrong there! If the batteries in my Leaf misbehave, I can stop quick and run. Maybe! But, I would not want Li batteries at 30,000 feet up in the sky, at least not without a good parachute. The only place worse than that would be 12,000 feet under the sea.
A major hull breach would be over fast. Very fast. The piston in a diesel engine compresses the air in the cylinder to about 20 Atmospheres (Atm), which raises the temp to enough ignite the fuel. The Titanic is in water with a pressure of over 300 Atm. The inrush of sea water would ignite everything. A slow uncontrolled leak would slowly raise the pressure and temp to un survivable levels. I don't know, but I have serious doubts about the existence of pumps that can work against 300 Atm. That would be a lot of lift.
Dropping ballast could only work as long as there is not too much water in the sub.
There is not really any scenario for drowning, but high pressure caused by raising water levels would cause the bends.
There is also the consideration that sea water is not likely to get along well with Li batteries.
73,
Rick
Well, Lithium Batteries, at least nothing can go wrong there! If the batteries in my Leaf misbehave, I can stop quick and run. Maybe! But, I would not want Li batteries at 30,000 feet up in the sky, at least not without a good parachute. The only place worse than that would be 12,000 feet under the sea.
A major hull breach would be over fast. Very fast. The piston in a diesel engine compresses the air in the cylinder to about 20 Atmospheres (Atm), which raises the temp to enough ignite the fuel. The Titanic is in water with a pressure of over 300 Atm. The inrush of sea water would ignite everything. A slow uncontrolled leak would slowly raise the pressure and temp to un survivable levels. I don't know, but I have serious doubts about the existence of pumps that can work against 300 Atm. That would be a lot of lift.
Dropping ballast could only work as long as there is not too much water in the sub.
There is not really any scenario for drowning, but high pressure caused by raising water levels would cause the bends.
There is also the consideration that sea water is not likely to get along well with Li batteries.
73,
Rick
Last edited:
DWalt
Member
It is not difficult to imagine the damage that even a small leak at a pressure over 5,000 psi would cause.
One of the reasons I would not be on a Boat/Ship that is designed to sink....
NFrameFred
Member
Saw one of the talking heads interviewing Pogue. He stated there were several "options"/"systems" that could be deployed (theoretically?) to "allow the sub to surface". BUT ... all it would allow if successful was would be to float on the surface - no way to exit or unseal the canister, or send distress signals should the power fail. They bet their lives on that and I fear that was a bad bet. Though I don't have the fortitude for it, I understand pioneers in technology risking their lives to accomplish things in the name of exploration and research. Won't judge/condemn anyone who just has the money and does it for a lark, but question their grasp on reality and common sense. If that crew survives this it will, indeed, be a Providential miracle of grace.
Titanic, symbolic of man's arrogance (unsinkable) will claim 5 more lives. Folks are so worried: "It'll be gone in a hundred more years!" Good. Joe
At least if it does make it to the surface it will be visible. If...
There is live coverage on the BBC here. "A pipe-laying vessel is at the scene... The ship has two remote-control underwater vessels capable of searching for the OceanGate Titan"
"Dr Simon Boxall, University of Southampton lecturer in oceanography, said it was a "real challenge" to identify where the missing submersible is and to get it back.
He believes its unlikely the Titan is on the surface, and that it may have become snared on part of the wreckage..."
He believes its unlikely the Titan is on the surface, and that it may have become snared on part of the wreckage..."
Who's up for another EV thread?
OP
Apparently what happened was on the descent as it lost communication about 1 1/2 hours into the dive and it takes 2 to 2 1/2 hours to reach the wreck.
DWalt
Member
And the oceanographic gurus believe that indicates there was very likely to have been a catastrophic hull failure before Titan reached its full depth. If so, death of those onboard would have been nearly instantaneous. It is possible that what happened to Titan may never be known.
OP
This situation has resulted in a lot of “DUH” statements from supposedly knowledgeable people. Looking at CNN, one Admiral said the longer they remain missing, the less likely a positive outcome. Another said that the fact that it hasn’t surfaced on its own indicates a malfunction. DUH
Old Arkansawyer
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In the tourist case, they had more dollars than sense.
My question is where was the mother ship during the
launch and did it not hang around to pick-up the sub
when and if it did surface?
My question is where was the mother ship during the
launch and did it not hang around to pick-up the sub
when and if it did surface?
Numerous media sources are saying that the submersible departed with 96 hours of oxygen. They are now down to under 40 hours.
I can't imagine what the families of those onboard are going through.
I can't imagine what the families of those onboard are going through.
Grandma Muggins would say that if you’re going two miles in any direction, up, down, or sideways, and the conveyance is controlled by a repurposed Logitech gaming controller, just say no . . .
^^^^^
There is that.
There is that.
My understanding of it is:
1) they lost contract as it was slightly above the wreck, so very close to the bottom. It is supposed to ping every 15 minutes but it stopped pinging and they lost communication with it as well.
2) That could have been due to loss of electrical power. If they immediately aborted it would have been 2-3 hours before they surfaced, and knowing the currents on the way down they could, pretty easily predict where they would surface. But they have not been spotted on the surface despite extensive air and surface search efforts.
3) it’s possible they snagged on the wreckage, but that would have meant both getting hung up in the wreck or a discarded fishing net *and* having a simultaneous loss of electrical power.
4) its far more likely the submersible imploded. The US Navy has its SOSUS system that would detect the implosion, but it’s not likely to advertise the capability. And if they heard the implosion, there is no upside to announcing it. The crew and passengers are still dead.
5) building on 4, there is a vessel capable of searching and rendering aide currently in the Channel Islands, but it is not yet underway, but rather waiting for government approval. The government might not be willing to give approval if the NAvy can confirm an implosion via SOSUS.
6) press reports are that it stared out with 96 hours of oxygen. It’s not been disclosed whether that O2 is in high pressure tanks (more likely spheres if carried outside the pressure hull to those depths), or is in the form of emergency oxygen generators (oxygen candles). 96 hours of O2 for 6 people is about 20,000 liters / 700 cu ft of oxygen. Breathing that much O2 will produce about 16,000 liters or 560 cu ft of CO2 that would have to be scrubbed.
7) It’s also reported to have a CO2 scrubber system, and that’s most likely a lithium hydroxide based system. It’s not clear however how it is powered. If it relies on main system power there won’t be any way to push air through the scrubber, and there isn’t much room inside to spread it out it trays. If it’s powered by its own battery, it’s not clear if the 96 hours reflects the degraded performance of both battery and the lithium hydroxide at near freezing temperatures around 36 degrees F.
8) if they did not implode they have, best case 96 hours of oxygen and CO2 scrubbing capability. But water will be limited as will food and other facilities. If the lost electrical power other than a little heat generated by the CO2 scrubber system they won’t have any heat and with nothing more than a set of overalls hypothermia will potentially kill them before hypoxia (lack of oxygen) or hypercapnia (high CO2 levels).
9) assuming they are on the bottom and near the wreck they are looking for a mini van sized submersible in a debris field under 12,500 ft of uneven bottom. That’s a tough task for sonar.
If they imploded they are looking for little pieces of a former mini van sized object spread over the bottom in a debris field. That’s almost impossible to do with sonar.
10) if they did reach the surface, they need surface support to exit the submersible as there are 17 bolts that have to be removed. I’m pretty sure the carbon fiber pressure bull is just bolted to the titanium nose cap, with no other hatch in the pressure hull.
If they are on the surface the 96 hour air and CO2 limits still apply, they are just less likely to freeze to death first.
11) If you are in that situation, implosion is the best way to go as it would all happen in a fraction of a second and you’re dead before your brain can process what happens as nearly 6,000 psi compresses and heats everything in side before the wall of water crushes what’s left. Absent some impending signs of pressure bull, failure you’re just dead before you know it.
Hypothermia is the next best option as you don’t feel cold near the end and just go to sleep.
Similarly, once the partial pressure of oxygen (PPO2) falls much below about .10 (normal PPO2 is .21 at sea level breathing air), you just feel really tired, lose consciousness and die in your sleep.
The worst way to go is high CO2. Elevated CO2 levels are what trigger your response to breathe, so even with plenty of oxygen you’d feel oxygen deprived and would start breathing more rapidly, your blood pressure increases, you become disoriented, anxiety increases and panic and convulsions can occur as it nears lethal levels.
I would not wish that on anyone, and if there are not recoverable my hope is that it’s because the submersible imploded.
1) they lost contract as it was slightly above the wreck, so very close to the bottom. It is supposed to ping every 15 minutes but it stopped pinging and they lost communication with it as well.
2) That could have been due to loss of electrical power. If they immediately aborted it would have been 2-3 hours before they surfaced, and knowing the currents on the way down they could, pretty easily predict where they would surface. But they have not been spotted on the surface despite extensive air and surface search efforts.
3) it’s possible they snagged on the wreckage, but that would have meant both getting hung up in the wreck or a discarded fishing net *and* having a simultaneous loss of electrical power.
4) its far more likely the submersible imploded. The US Navy has its SOSUS system that would detect the implosion, but it’s not likely to advertise the capability. And if they heard the implosion, there is no upside to announcing it. The crew and passengers are still dead.
5) building on 4, there is a vessel capable of searching and rendering aide currently in the Channel Islands, but it is not yet underway, but rather waiting for government approval. The government might not be willing to give approval if the NAvy can confirm an implosion via SOSUS.
6) press reports are that it stared out with 96 hours of oxygen. It’s not been disclosed whether that O2 is in high pressure tanks (more likely spheres if carried outside the pressure hull to those depths), or is in the form of emergency oxygen generators (oxygen candles). 96 hours of O2 for 6 people is about 20,000 liters / 700 cu ft of oxygen. Breathing that much O2 will produce about 16,000 liters or 560 cu ft of CO2 that would have to be scrubbed.
7) It’s also reported to have a CO2 scrubber system, and that’s most likely a lithium hydroxide based system. It’s not clear however how it is powered. If it relies on main system power there won’t be any way to push air through the scrubber, and there isn’t much room inside to spread it out it trays. If it’s powered by its own battery, it’s not clear if the 96 hours reflects the degraded performance of both battery and the lithium hydroxide at near freezing temperatures around 36 degrees F.
8) if they did not implode they have, best case 96 hours of oxygen and CO2 scrubbing capability. But water will be limited as will food and other facilities. If the lost electrical power other than a little heat generated by the CO2 scrubber system they won’t have any heat and with nothing more than a set of overalls hypothermia will potentially kill them before hypoxia (lack of oxygen) or hypercapnia (high CO2 levels).
9) assuming they are on the bottom and near the wreck they are looking for a mini van sized submersible in a debris field under 12,500 ft of uneven bottom. That’s a tough task for sonar.
If they imploded they are looking for little pieces of a former mini van sized object spread over the bottom in a debris field. That’s almost impossible to do with sonar.
10) if they did reach the surface, they need surface support to exit the submersible as there are 17 bolts that have to be removed. I’m pretty sure the carbon fiber pressure bull is just bolted to the titanium nose cap, with no other hatch in the pressure hull.
If they are on the surface the 96 hour air and CO2 limits still apply, they are just less likely to freeze to death first.
11) If you are in that situation, implosion is the best way to go as it would all happen in a fraction of a second and you’re dead before your brain can process what happens as nearly 6,000 psi compresses and heats everything in side before the wall of water crushes what’s left. Absent some impending signs of pressure bull, failure you’re just dead before you know it.
Hypothermia is the next best option as you don’t feel cold near the end and just go to sleep.
Similarly, once the partial pressure of oxygen (PPO2) falls much below about .10 (normal PPO2 is .21 at sea level breathing air), you just feel really tired, lose consciousness and die in your sleep.
The worst way to go is high CO2. Elevated CO2 levels are what trigger your response to breathe, so even with plenty of oxygen you’d feel oxygen deprived and would start breathing more rapidly, your blood pressure increases, you become disoriented, anxiety increases and panic and convulsions can occur as it nears lethal levels.
I would not wish that on anyone, and if there are not recoverable my hope is that it’s because the submersible imploded.
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