45 Colt Load OK For 25-15?

[cowboy4evr]

Yesterday I shot 50 rounds of 45 colt through my OM Ruger Vaquero , 4 5/8" barrel . It was a 1/2 box using the Keith swc and 1/2 box using the LEE RNFP , both weighing 255 grs loaded using 6.5 grs of Red Dot . Accuracy was the same (fantastic) and again I will say , " 6.5 grs of Red Dot " is a great load and will take of most anything needing taken care of . Now if your in Zimbabwe and facing down a wildebeast , then you are " under gunned " . Regards Paul

 

[Bill Lear]

Back on the day as they say, trying to boost the performance of the .45 Colt seemed a bit more important than these days when I have other options for ultimate power.
I like the M25-15 because it has that long, gracile, tapered barrel and sits in the hand perfectly. I didn't buy it to magnumize, nor to even push the envelope, but to enjoy the mild recoil produced by standard pressure loads.

For those who desire more, the best .45 Colt choice of all is the M460 with 5 inch barrel. it's just under 60 ounces, balanced in the hand and will deliver "power" approaching 2,600 joules from the short barrel which beats all others, and can shoot the entire litany of .45 caliber cartridges from .45 Schofield, .45 Colt, .454 Casull, and .460 S&W, and for those who desire it, can be modified to accept Moon clips and also shoot .45 auto, and even the .45 Winchester magnum, and even the .460 Rowland!

The point is, there is simply no reason to even care to shoot warm loads in the M25-15.

In 2023 the perfect "field carry" handgun is the 1911 chambered in .460 Rowland. All the virtues of the 1911 platform, 39 ounces, 9-11 shots, 1,280 joules of "power" which is right there with short barrel .44 mag performance, and with nothing even approaching magnum handgun recoil. If a 255 grain bullet at 900 fps is considered "all you need" from the .45 Colt, then a 255 grain bullet at 1,300 fps is certainly better, and far more practical.

 

[DR505]

Isn't 9 Unique just about max? I use 6.4 and its a very nice target load. Am I just a wuss?

Well....yes, you are.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Loading a 1870's 45 Colt cartridge "up" to 1910's 45ACP pressure level (21K psi), in a modern revolver, is not magnumizing it. That's just bringing it into the 20th Century.

Taking a 1910's cartridge/pistol & actually loading it to 460 Rowland power (40K psi) and 21st Century standards is magnumizing it.

.

 

[fishwishin]

Since Unique and the 25-15 was recently brought up I am seeking input on CFE pistol loadings… I shoot anywhere from 8.0-8.5 of Unique through my 25-15, but today I loaded up 8.5, 8.7 and 9.0 grains of CFE pistol. My bullet is always a 250 Blue Bullet LRNFP or a 250 XTP. Today I loaded the Blue Bullets and my loads are well within specs, I am just wondering if anybody else runs the CFE pistol and .45 Colt?

 

[AJ]

A few years ago I lucked into a Colt Model 1909 U.S. Army in .45 Colt. This revolver is 114 years old and I shoot it regularly. While reading up on it's history, I found the War Department's specifications for the ammo. They required a round with a 250 grain bullet at 750 FPS. Using a computer program a friend has, we found about 30 different loads of various powders that gave us that velocity. My favorite is 5.6 grains of Bullseye and it shoots that to point of aim at 25 yards. Also for you folks that like Unique the load is 6.4 grains.

I figure since these revolvers were being used in the Philippines against Moros (who were rather fanatical and .38 Special was not stopping), then it should be good for me. Good target load and defense load all rolled into one. Besides it does not beat up the gun or you to shoot it.

 

[Pisgah]

Despite all "expert" warnings above, 9 gr. of Unique and a 250 gr. bullet is well within the range of "standard" .45 Colt loads, and is perfectly safe in your revolver.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

I have used CFE-Pistol in quite a few calibers: yesterday I loaded some 357 SIG with 68gr Xtreme Defense bullet close to Lehigh's 1800+ fps load data with it!

One of my favorite powders.

Cheers!

 

[Arkfarmer]

9 gr Unique

Despite all "expert" warnings above, 9 gr. of Unique and a 250 gr. bullet is well within the range of "standard" .45 Colt loads, and is perfectly safe in your revolver.

I've used 9gr of unique and a 260 Keith style cast bullet for 40 years in my gen 2 Colt peace maker and I would think the newer S&W would be far stronger.... plus something I've always wondered is how is the mod 25 frame different than the mod 29 that takes far more aggressive pressure in stride... John

 

[smithra_66]

My standard load for the .45 Colt has always been 9 grains of Unique under a swaged Remington 250-grain RNFP. I shot these for many years through a Ruger Blackhawk and a Colt Anaconda. I wonder if this is OK in my new 25-15 or should I drop the powder weight a couple grains? I did put a cylinder's worth of these cartridges through it and found that my crimp needed to be heavier to keep the bullet from backing out, a problem I never had with the other two guns. I think part of it might be that the Smith is lighter and recoil is snappier. Shooting the 25-15 is a pleasure and I don't want to stress it.

It will eat all of those you can feed it with zero indigestion.

 

[steelslaver]

A S&W 45 ACP cylinder is the same OD as a 45 colt cylinder, the stop notches are in the same location. They will both contain the same pressure. As far as the frame goes it is the exact same frame as the model 29. The 45 colt does have a larger volume. The SAMII standard is because they have to consider all the nearly 150 year old colt revolvers in 45 colt. NOT because of any weakness in modern S&W revolvers chambered for it.

I limit my rounds to pressures under 25,000 psi, or 1,100 fps with a 255 gr SWC another 100-200fps will not change the 100 yard trajectory much and as they will go all the way though something like an elk the extra velocity will not kill anything any deader. I have 8 S&W 45 colt revolvers and none of them have had a single problem. I do not, however, fire warm loads in my 455 Triplelock which was reamed to 45 colt out of respect for its 100+ life

S&W 45 colt love

This one was made up from a 5 screw HP frame, a 45 colt barrel and a recessed 44 mag cylinder reamed to 45 colt. A 5 screw pinned and recessed 45 colt

another 5 screw pinned and recessed 45 colt, this onbe made up using a 1955 frame and barrel

On this one I used a 1917 frame and a 1950 barrel and a 25-5 cylinder

this one started life as a Brazilian

both of these were originally 629-1s

this one was an 8 3/8" 25-5 when I got it. Now a 5" pinned and recessed

this 455 TL had been converted to 45 colt by the reaming and partially recessed method when I found it

Ruger only loads. Ruger 45 cylinders are the same diameter as S&W cylinders, but they have a slight advantage in that their stop notch is slightly off center of the chamber.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

...I've always wondered is how is the mod 25 frame different than the mod 29 that takes far more aggressive pressure in stride... John

It's the cylinder, specifically the stop/lock notch thickness, you need to be concerned with first in this comparison.

At it's thinnest point the cylinder lock notch of a S&W 45 revolver (either 45ACP or 45 Colt) averages .030" thick (outside chamber wall thickness minus the lock notch's depth).

On a S&W 44 Magnum it averages .040" thickness.

That's ~25% less in metal thickness for the 45 to contain the chamber pressures.

.

 

[jem102]

"A S&W 45 ACP cylinder is the same OD as a 45 colt cylinder, the stop notches are in the same location. They will both contain the same pressure. As far as the frame goes it is the exact same frame as the model 29. The 45 colt does have a larger volume. The SAMII standard is because they have to consider all the nearly 150 year old colt revolvers in 45 colt. NOT because of any weakness in modern S&W revolvers chambered for it."


"Originally Posted by Arkfarmer ...I've always wondered is how is the mod 25 frame different than the mod 29 that takes far more aggressive pressure in stride... John
It's the cylinder, specially the stop/lock notch thickness, you need to be concerned with first in this comparison."

"At it's thinnest point the cylinder lock notch of a S&W 45 revolver (either 45ACP or 45 Colt) averages .030" thick (outside chamber wall thickness minus the lock notch's depth).

On a S&W 44 Magnum it averages .040" thickness.

That's ~25% less in metal thickness for the 45 to contain the chamber pressures."


Interesting. Makes sense that an N frame, is an N frame, is an N frame be it .357, .41 Mag, .44 Spec, .44 Mag or the .45's. Is the cylinder window the same size for all N frames? Is the cylinder diameter the same for all N Frames? If the diameter is the same I assume notch location and timing are the same?

 

[venomballistics]

if we were talking some 20 some odd grains of 2400, we might have some debate. but what you have there in something in the realm of a standard issue target load.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

A few years ago I lucked into a Colt Model 1909 U.S. Army in .45 Colt. This revolver is 114 years old and I shoot it regularly. While reading up on it's history, I found the War Department's specifications for the ammo. They required a round with a 250 grain bullet at 750 FPS. Using a computer program a friend has, we found about 30 different loads of various powders that gave us that velocity. My favorite is 5.6 grains of Bullseye and it shoots that to point of aim at 25 yards. Also for you folks that like Unique the load is 6.4 grains.

I figure since these revolvers were being used in the Philippines against Moros (who were rather fanatical and .38 Special was not stopping), then it should be good for me. Good target load and defense load all rolled into one. Besides it does not beat up the gun or you to shoot it.

I figured if we are going to talk history we should get it correct. It wasn't the .38 Special that failed. I'm fairly sure it was the 38 Colt or 38 S&W.

Also, while they were fanatical if was being drugged up which kept them coming after being shot.

 

[StrawHat]

I figured if we are going to talk history we should get it correct. It wasn't the .38 Special that failed. I'm fairly sure it was the 38 Colt or 38 S&W.

Also, while they were fanatical if was being drugged up which kept them coming after being shot.

It was the 38 Colt cartridge that was not good at stopping them. Of course, neither was the 30-40 and even the 45 long Colt had some issues. It was just a matter of which one had fewer issues.

Kevin

 

[AJ]

I figured if we are going to talk history we should get it correct. It wasn't the .38 Special that failed. I'm fairly sure it was the 38 Colt or 38 S&W.

Also, while they were fanatical if was being drugged up which kept them coming after being shot.

Sorry, fingers are not use to typing 38 Colt. It has been around since 1898, so I guess it was to experimental for the military to use it yet

It was the 38 Colt cartridge that was not good at stopping them. Of course, neither was the 30-40 and even the 45 long Colt had some issues. It was just a matter of which one had fewer issues.

Kevin

Yes, it was the .38 Colt. Both the .38 Colt and the 30-40 Krag were having problems. So, they dusted off the Colt SAA's in .45 Colt. These worked better. The pistol that was to become the M1911 was being developed. By 1909 the Colt SAA's were wearing out and the War Department need a replacement until the M1911's came on line. So 30,000 Colt M1909 U.S. Army's were procured. Almost all of these were sent to the Philippines.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Is the cylinder window the same size for all N frames?
Is the cylinder diameter the same for all N Frames?
If the diameter is the same I assume notch location and timing are the same?

Yes, Yes, & Yes

.

 

[BC38]

My standard load for the .45 Colt has always been 9 grains of Unique under a swaged Remington 250-grain RNFP. I shot these for many years through a Ruger Blackhawk and a Colt Anaconda. I wonder if this is OK in my new 25-15 or should I drop the powder weight a couple grains? I did put a cylinder's worth of these cartridges through it and found that my crimp needed to be heavier to keep the bullet from backing out, a problem I never had with the other two guns. I think part of it might be that the Smith is lighter and recoil is snappier. Shooting the 25-15 is a pleasure and I don't want to stress it.

Sounds like you have already correctly diagnosed the issue. Not enough crimp for this load in the lighter gun.
Pretty easy fix. Too bad all reloading issues aren't that easy to remedy, eh?

 

[steelslaver]

"A S&W 45 ACP cylinder is the same OD as a 45 colt cylinder, the stop notches are in the same location. They will both contain the same pressure. As far as the frame goes it is the exact same frame as the model 29. The 45 colt does have a larger volume. The SAMII standard is because they have to consider all the nearly 150 year old colt revolvers in 45 colt. NOT because of any weakness in modern S&W revolvers chambered for it."


"Originally Posted by Arkfarmer ...I've always wondered is how is the mod 25 frame different than the mod 29 that takes far more aggressive pressure in stride... John
It's the cylinder, specially the stop/lock notch thickness, you need to be concerned with first in this comparison."

"At it's thinnest point the cylinder lock notch of a S&W 45 revolver (either 45ACP or 45 Colt) averages .030" thick (outside chamber wall thickness minus the lock notch's depth).

On a S&W 44 Magnum it averages .040" thickness.

That's ~25% less in metal thickness for the 45 to contain the chamber pressures."


Interesting. Makes sense that an N frame, is an N frame, is an N frame be it .357, .41 Mag, .44 Spec, .44 Mag or the .45's. Is the cylinder window the same size for all N frames? Is the cylinder diameter the same for all N Frames? If the diameter is the same I assume notch location and timing are the same?

Yes, the cylinder window is the same on all N frames and the cylinders are all the same diameter. The 357, 44 special, as well as the 25-3 and earlier 45 colts are all about 1/8" shorter than the 41 and 44 mag and 45 colt cylinders from 25-5 and later. The 45 acp cylinders are the same 1/8" shorter in front as well as about .035 shorter to the rear for the clips. The 357, 44 special, 45 acp and early 45 colts guns all have an 1/8" longer barrel extension to close up the B/C gap using their shorter cylinders. The stop notch and ratchet are all the same. The 45 acp cylinders have a thicker ratchet to head space properly with the clips. The ends of the extractor arms changed when the pins were deleted and the stop notch got longer with the addition of the endurance package. (See note below on endurance cylinders)

I have fit a pre model Highway patrolmen with a 45 colt cylinder made from a 29-2. I have also made 45 colt cylinders using 357 cylinders. I have also fit a 25-5 cylinder to a 1917 frame. While the overall shape of the ratchet teeth changed over the years, the shape of the surface engaged by the hand remains the same.

The metallurgy and heat treatment of the cylinders and frame no doubt improved as time went on. But, I find it extremely hard to believe that it makes any economic sense that any of the frames or cylinders of the same era got a better metal or treatment than the others. From a production tracking and liability standpoint it would be huge minus to do otherwise.

While I would not make a triple lock or early 1917 frame into a 44 magnum, I have made a 1917 into 45 colt and fired plenty of 255 gr- 1100fps rounds though it using more recent cylinders. It is the cylinder that fails not the frame and the cylinder will fail long before a load causes the frame to stretch.

Look at the old cap and ball colt dragoons that fired appox the same sized bullet at 1000fps with no top strap what so ever.

45 colt vs 44 mag cylinder wall and notch. The OD of the 45 colt case is .480 and the 44 mag is .457. A difference of .023 in diameter and .0115 in radius meaning the entire outside cylinder wall is that much thinner as well as the stop notch. The 44 mag runs at 36,000 psi a 45 colt at 25,000 psi has 30% less pressure. The stop notch cylinder area of 45 colt is exactly the same as that of a 45acp cylinder that is OKed for 23,00 psi 45ACP +P.

BTW go look at the thickness of the chamber wall on a 1911 running 45 supers at 28,000 psi. Then know a lot of guys are shooting a lot of 45 supers from 25-2s


One more note is that the endurance package and later cylinders had a longer stop notch and cylinder stop. It is located in the same spot as the previous guns. A endurance cylinder will work n a non endurance frame. But, a non endurance cylinder will not work correctly in an endurance frame with an endurance stop. Also in my opinion from an engineering stand point the endurance cylinders are weaker than the non endurance ones. Because the stop notch is longer you have a larger amount weaker area in a critical area of the chamber wall. If you do not believe that making the notch longer makes them weaker I advice you NOT to make the notch cut on a chamber full length and fire a round in it. A small thin spot in a pressure vessel get more support from the surrounding thicker area than a wider OR LONGER one

I spent 2 months earlier this year supervising the inspection and pressure testing tube exchangers. Worked with several API inspectors and 4 people who checked tube corrosion and wear using equipment that I will call sonic waves to get readings along the length of the tubes and another method called an iris that uses a small camera to visually record the condition of each tube. If tubes are suitable for continued use id determine by not just dept of corrosion but by area of corrosion and the amount of linear corrosion will cause rejection faster than radial.