Does the 642 still make sense?

[Yaworski]

unless you can always predict what fire you are going to have to put out it may be prudent to not just have a stove top fire extinguisher at hand.

That thought process is why new houses in some areas are required to have sprinkler systems.

I've had one stovetop fire and that was when I was maybe 11 (55 years ago). It required putting the lid on the pan to snuff it.

In the gun world, to be fully prepared, you need to carry an AR in a racket bag and at least ten loaded magazines to be ready for the worst that can happen. Hell of a way to live.

 

[dubshooter]

That thought process is why new houses in some areas are required to have sprinkler systems.

I've had one stovetop fire and that was when I was maybe 11 (55 years ago). It required putting the lid on the pan to snuff it.

In the gun world, to be fully prepared, you need to carry an AR in a racket bag and at least ten loaded magazines to be ready for the worst that can happen. Hell of a way to live.

I hear of people that plan for the worst case and leave suppressed rifles in their car with loaded mags so they can “fight back to the rifle” when in reality, you’re far more likely to have your car burglarized and have a criminal steal that gun than need to use it against the criminal.

 

[Brian Parrish]

This is the essence of the debate. These conversations always remind me of fire extinguishers. Anybody who has ever encountered the frustration of trying to put out a fire with too small of a fire extinguisher will understand the analogy. Carry what you want, but unless you can always predict what fire you are going to have to put out it may be prudent to not just have a stove top fire extinguisher at hand.

Thank you for the input.
The difference in my thinking would be that I am saying that the tool and strategy and skill all get implemented by the thinking and preparation of the fighter. Because I am carrying a short-range low-capacity weapon, I am going to have to close with my target. I know what the tool can do, so I am going to get where I need to be and do what I need to do to use that tool effectively.

We like to watch "mag dump videos". Over and again, we see a cop, or a defender dump a whole mag or two with no effect. He thrusts the gun forward in the general direction of the threat and flexes the trigger finger until all ammo is depleted. He does what he believes is supposed to work. And in a prime-time, crime drama, that IS what does work!

I try to continue with your fire extinguisher analogy, and I think we all understand that we cannot argue or prove from an analogy, we just use it to illustrate our thinking. I watched my neighbor's house burn down and noted how the firefighters used their hoses. After it was all over, I asked why they had sprayed the water through the fire at one stage, instead of directly on to the burning wood. He said, "We had to lower the temperature of the fire." They also sprayed water on the outside of the next house. That was obvious they were saving the whole neighborhood. First house was already gone. I respect them and their knowledge and I ain't been to their school. Your tiny kitchen fire extinguisher ought rather to be used not directly on the flaming pot itself but to keep the fire from spreading. I use the tool to do what the tool can do.

What I make clear here is that we gun people speak about the equipment we carry as if that is decisive in a conflict. I learned from the "Jeff Cooper Commentaries" why this is the way it is, and I understand and accept it.

I say again:
"A gunfight is more fight than gun!"

 

[kbm6893]

I don’t shoot J frames very well, but well enough for its intended purpose. I carried one on subways in the 90’s in NYC. Never needed to fire a shot but always felt comfortable with it in my front pocket, ready to shoot through if I need to. I still carry my 640 every now and then. I still feel protected when I do.

 

[kbm6893]

I hear of people that plan for the worst case and leave suppressed rifles in their car with loaded mags so they can “fight back to the rifle” when in reality, you’re far more likely to have your car burglarized and have a criminal steal that gun than need to use it against the criminal.

Yeah. Some people are nuts. There was a guy in another forum who said he carries 2 Beretta 92 9MM’s with spare mags(same model gun so same magazines), and in his trunk he had a Beretta CX4 Storm with an Aimpoint, a freaking ballistic vest, plus a first aid kit with tourniquets and Quick Clot.

 

[Brian Parrish]

Thanks for participating in the discuss.

"What about Dicken in the Mall?" Yes- Mr. Dicken fired 10 rounds and hit the perp with 8 at extended distance with a G19 using ball ammo. Given his demonstrated skill level, I suspect a similar positive outcome if he would have been armed with a 3" Model 10 and 135 gr Gold Dots. His experience is more a lesson on the benefits of tactical marksmanship rather than capacity.

Though it is extremely difficult to get reliable information, I tried to study the shooting at the Greenwood Mall in detail. Eli Dicken will NOT talk about it. His lawyer made one short speech about it and has said nothing more, instead promising to withhold further until the lawyers all get done with it, so we may never know. I wanted to discover what was DECISIVE in the fight. It was a fight with two fighters involved.

It is true that he fired his first shot from 40 yards away confirmed by his attorney and the video. I think he shot twice braced, and these were the two misses. He then closed moving to the second pillar. I think this was around 22 yards away, he fired several times braced, and hit all. He then moved closer I think approximately twelve or fifteen yards and fired again all hits. He moved very near and I think fired two more both hits.

It is my opinion that the first two shots, both misses were decisive in the final outcome. Because the AssHWAG was determined to retreat to that bathroom and ambush any LEO's that followed, that was his battle plan, when he realized he was taking fire, he left off his attacking of innocents. The shots from the second pillar stopped his retreat to the bathroom. Subsequent shots ended his life or were unnecessary depending on which wound or wounds were fatal.

We cannot say that ten shots were necessary or decisive, because we will never know which rounds hit where, from what range. To me it is conceivable that a revolver could have been used in this scenario though it would have required a running reload as the hero defender was moving from the second pillar to the third and closer firing location.

Please correct me with my thanks. I am not the expert here. Sorry I cannot link my sources so TIFWIW. I share with you my belief though I know I can't prove it to you. I can say and I think you will also find that it is not true that Dicken stood and fired 10 rounds from 40 yards with 8 hits.

 

[Sgt. Buzzard]

I'm with .455 Hunter here. The black 442 is low key for concealed carry whereas a 642 is more of a range gun, shiny and bright. The humid environmental argument is valid for those who are allergic to maintenance.

OK, now that I've offended most of you,here's my take. I love J frames, been carrying and training with them for just over fifty years. As the dept. RO, I was shooting multi target close combat drills a couple of times a week. Free bullets, yeah. So I am very comfortable with just five rounds.

Yes, I own a Sig 365 and a G19 too. Great for the zombie apocalypse. But I like very light and very concealed. So, required to qualify with what you carry under LEOSA/HR218 there's no zombie guns. There is my 442 and a G42. That's it. I prefer the Smith due to long known reliability and extensive training. The Glock comes out in summer and still mostly in a OWB holster under a Hawaiian shirt, it's a NE cop thing.

The pocket holster is used almost exclusively for motorcycle travel. My zombie guns wait for range day with the other geezers. The J frame fits a very personal comfort zone.

 

[heeter3]

I totally agree with Max-BB.

 

[Yaworski]

Yeah. Some people are nuts. There was a guy in another forum who said he carries 2 Beretta 92 9MM’s with spare mags(same model gun so same magazines), and in his trunk he had a Beretta CX4 Storm with an Aimpoint, a freaking ballistic vest, plus a first aid kit with tourniquets and Quick Clot.

He's either the "Warrior Poet" or Massad Ayoob.

 

[haywood]

It must. Rod Garrett and Lipsey’s released a new model.

 

[dubshooter]

It must. Rod Garrett and Lipsey’s released a new model.

And for some reason I want one

 

[WR Moore]

He's either the "Warrior Poet" or Massad Ayoob.

Actually, when that sort of load out was mentioned to Mas maybe decades ago, his response was along the lines of " If I thought I needed a load out like that, I'd stay home".

 

[Glenn R. McMannly]

J-frames make fine BUGs but as primary?

No way.

The purpose of these small revolvers is not as a main concealed carry gun. There are so many better options these days. It’s not 1950 anymore.

Extremely reliable high capacity .380s and 9mms that are just as light and compact as a 5-shot snub. We’re living in the golden age of carry. And a J-frame is long obsolete.

 

[pistolpete10]

My normal carry is a 642. I pocket carry, the 642 is one of the few guns that you can get a grip on in a pocket and still draw it. I have an LC9, can carry in a pocket but if you get a firing grip on it you can't draw it. If I'm gonna carry in a belt holster it can be anything, prolly a Lightweight Commander. Need a spare magazine it an Auto in caes it falls out.

 

[Shibadog]

IFF they shoot regularly. Most of the people I've known with one gun, run a box of ammo through it when new and never shoot it again.



Good with many different tools or excellent with just one? I'd rather have a neighbor who is the former than the latter.

I too see folks who buy one, shoot it a few times and think alls well. The fact that a person owns a blaster and multiple magazines doesn’t mean they are “armed” anymore than owning a guitar makes them a musician

 

[Rustyt1953]

A gun is not a talisman.

 

[Eddie Southgate]

I carry an m32 quite a bit and do not feel disadvantaged. I do carry two Jstrips .

 

[Eddie Southgate]

Around here it seems the Taurus seem to be the choice for our notable people. The G2 and G3 series are quickly taking over the PT series of guns after all the Millenium Pros seem to have been impounded as evidence.

Got a G3c myself , they are good guns but would be better if they had an aluminum frame. They are cheap and reliable and armadillos hate them.

 

[ladder13]

These best carry gun threads exceed USPS, 9v45, what’s for bears, etc by a wide margin.

 

[wrkerr]

Having carried a j-frame for 50+ years, here are my thoughts. I started as an LEO in the revolver era. Just about everyone carried a Smith 38 with a 4-6" barrel, and a j-frame for backup and off duty. I fired those weapons literally tens of thousands of rounds. If you want proficiency with a 2", you must practice....a lot!

For me, I'm now 73 yrs old and my hands are struggling with arthritis. I find the slides on my 9mm's getting hard to manipulate. I still have full confidence in my old M49, even though only 5 rds. I shoot it well and often. I cast my own wadcutters and shoot it at least 400 rds a month. Ringing steel at 25 yds is not a problem. It is easy to conceal in any clothing so goes everywhere with an additional speed loader.

As far as 'multiple attackers' , you won't get all of them before they get you regardless what you're carrying, so I'll use my 5 rds to hopefully get away.

So, yes a j-frame is plenty viable in today's environment. Carry what you are most comfortable with and shoot the best. Then get out and practice! Just an old dinosaur's opinion.