American 44 “Rimfire”

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

Webb,
Can you provide specific references. I'm not interested in modern references or published claims without proof.
Murph

Interesting statement. There are many references but the best
I can provide is to direct you to Charles Pate's book: Smith &
Wesson American Model in U.S. and Foreign Service and
consult the foot notes.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[BMur]

Period reference

Webb,
The only period reference is what I have provided and that is Factory records that list 44 Rimfire not 44 Henry or 44 Henry Rimfire. Also the box that I just purchased is period reference and it clearly proves there is a difference between the 44 Henry Rimfire rifle round and the 44 Short Rimfire PISTOL round. If there wasn't there would be no need to produce a box of Pistol rounds during that period!

What I would like to see is any document from that period that states or proves the 44 Henry was designed for use in any pistol.

So far I have found nothing. In fact I've found the opposite to be true. The 44 Rimfire pistol had a pistol round that was designed and engineered to be shot from the pistol platform.

The association between the 44 Rimfire Henry rifle round and the 44 Rimfire pistol is not proven. They were obviously engineered differently or there would be absolutely no reason to manufacture a box of pistol rounds in the 44 Rimfire. Since the long standing claim is "My pistol shoots the 44 Henry Flat"!

So far it's a very long standing yarn that's been passed by word of mouth and swallowed for many years.

Murph

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


I suggest you read the book and check the footnotes. Mr. Pate put
a lot of time into his research and can document all that he asserts
with period documentation.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[BMur]

Info

Thanks Webb,
Did your Rimfire arrive yet? Mine did. I'm happy with it.

Murph

 

[mmaher94087]

"I have yet to actually see one of those Turkish contract variations. They are more rare than the Americans since most left the country." I'll post a picture, but I'll be out of town tomorrow. This is the only one I've seen, and I bought it.

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


No, not yet.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[bigwagon]

Webb,

All of my studies on the Colt SAA who also sent many 44 Rimfire pistols to Wexel FACTORY REFERENCE the 44 Rimfire only. None reference the 44 Henry.
Only modern published material make that claim.

Colt was famous for not wanting to promote a competitor's name when marking a barrel for a caliber that included a brand name other than Colt. I am not certain that they would have recorded the rimfire SAAs as 44 Henry even if it was the same cartridge. It's very possible that they could be the same cartridge and Colt simply recorded them as "44 Rimfire" rather than promote Henry, which was out of business at that point but still associated with Winchester.

 

[BMur]

Colt records

Colt factory records are usually very clear as to applicable caliber.
Most factory letters clearly state the caliber without prejudice regarding who manufactured or created the caliber.

Examples:

32 S&W.
38 S&W.
44 Russian
44 American
44 Winchester
38 Winchester
32/20 Winchester

I have documented factory letters that list these calibers on Single Action Army revolvers often times via special order.

I've also seen the 32 S&W stamped on the barrel of the Colt rainmaker (lightning model) and letters as such.

The only confusion I have ever documented is between a center fire and rimfire in the Newline series. However, factory records for the Newline is limited and only partial.

Yet none of the letters that I have seen even mention the Henry. They all list only. .44 rimfire as the cartridge. With an open mind that doesn't support the Henry theory.

Pre-1890 Colt revolvers lacked caliber stamps on the barrel. Most were acid etched but special order usually lacked the caliber stamp and it was found on the trigger guard bow. However, a factory letter "clearly" states the caliber in the records.

Post 1890 SAA are all stamped on the barrel with whatever caliber is applicable and without prejudice:

32WCF
38WCF
44WCF
44RUSS
476 Eley
38 Special
44 Magnum
44 Special
etc

In depth research is about "proving" your position. I would like to prove the Henry cartridge was designed for the 44 rimfire pistol but I have absolutely NO PROOF.

Right now my research supports that the Henry cartridge was likely used due only to availability of the cartridge. It was not designed for the pistol. The .44 rimfire Pistol round was designed for the pistol.

When my box of Pistol rounds arrives I plan on comparing those rounds with proven Henry flat rounds.

Murph

 

[BMur]

Research

Here is clear supporting proof that the 44 Henry Rimfire WAS NOT DESIGNED FOR THE PISTOL.

See photos

Notice the clear problem between the 44 Henry Flat and the 44 Short Pistol?

Case diameter?

The 44 Henry is too big to chamber in the pistol.

I have not tried it yet in my newly acquired 44 RimFire American

I will when the pistol rounds arrive but it's obvious to me now that it will not chamber.

The .445 diameter case should not chamber in a .445 chamber that is found on the American cylinder.

However, the .440 Short pistol round at .440 case diameter should slide in perfectly!

You'd have to pound that Henry round into the Smith and Wesson to get it to chamber


Murph

 

[BMur]

44 American cf

You can also clearly see that the 44 American centerfire has a case diameter of .440 as well. So the 44 American centerfire mimics exactly the 44 RIMFIRE PISTOL ROUND. Not the 44 Henry.

I'd have to check the Colt SAA 44 Rimfire chamber. But I suspect the same specs would be apparent.

Murph

 

[Model19man]

Colt factory records are usually very clear as to applicable caliber.
Most factory letters clearly state the caliber without prejudice regarding who manufactured or created the caliber.

Murph

Colt records are pretty lame. Contrary to what you said, for example, Colt Letter for a SAA in 38 WCF caliber will say "38/C".

Colt record / letters for a 38 Long Colt SAA will say the same thing. Note: Colt barrels, and earlier trigger guards, simply say 38 or in the case of a barrel 38 Colt.

I am not familiar with S&W records or letters but your example is not correct. Colt barrels are better evidence, most of the 38 WCF revolvers will say that on the barrel after a certain date (maybe 1902 ish).

 

[BMur]

38/40

See photos.

Colt started stamping the barrel with the caliber in 1889 via PATENT CHANGE.

No such thing as absolutes. However pattern of production is easily proven.

Very clearly caliber listed and very clearly marked on the barrel.
PATTERN OF PRODUCTION.

Murph

 

[Model19man]

See photos.

Colt started stamping the barrel with the caliber in 1889 via PATENT CHANGE.

No such thing as absolutes. However pattern of production is easily proven.

Very clearly caliber listed and very clearly marked on the barrel.
PATTERN OF PRODUCTION.

Murph

That is a very unusual letter in that it calls out 38 40 - most are like I said.

 

[BMur]

44 Henry Flat

Well,
I couldn't wait. It's going to be a while before my 44 Rimfire Short box of ammo gets here so I decided to try some 44 Henry Flat rounds from my collection.

This is an original Smith & Wesson 44 Rimfire American and you can clearly see from the photo that they DO NOT CHAMBER.

They both stop cold at the same place in all six chambers.

The rounds mic at .445 at the base. The chambers I have already mic'd upon arrival of the antique. They mic at .445.

A minimum of .005 undersized is standard for proper fit.

The 44 HENRY IS NOT THE CORRECT ROUND FOR THIS GUN.

I'm absolutely sure now that the pistol rounds will drop right in.

Makes me wonder about the Turkish contract guns. They may have been chambered differently.

Murph

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


What serial number is the revolver that won't chamber the .44
Henry?

As I mentioned earlier, the .44 American was derived from the
44/100 cartridge which was used in the Frank Wesson rifles and
carbines. This was a .44 RF and pics depict it as having a pointed
bullet. I don't have any information on the specs for the 44/100
cartridge but I believe that the early No. 3 Rim Fires were cham-
bered for this round and the .44 American was just the same
cartridge in center fire form.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[BMur]

44 Rimfire Pistol

Webb,
The transition I believe from earliest 44 Rimfire was from pistol to pistol. Not from rifle to pistol.

The first Pistol I am aware of was the Hammond Bulldog in 44 Rimfire having an October 25,1864 patent date on the barrel.

See photos of pistol and documented round.

This early pistol round is basically identical dimensionally speaking with the post 1871 American 44 Rimfire pistol round.

All rifle rounds from the Winchester, Henry, Ballard, Howard, and Frank Wesson are TOO BIG to chamber in the pistol.

Specifically, the case diameter is too large! It's documented in case specs and physically tested and proven that they won't fit.

The only question that remains is: " Regarding the Turkish contract guns". "Are they actually machine chambered for the rifle round"?

We would have to try rifle rounds and see if they consistently chamber with ease.

Remember, if it is proven that the Turkish contract pistols do actually chamber the rifle rounds then the pistol round will not function safely in those guns. They would be grossly undersized and the cases would bulge and split upon discharge.

This research so far only strongly supports that the commercial guns that includes those sent to Wexel ( Mexico) were NOT CHAMBERED FOR THE HENRY RIFLE.

Murph

 

[mmaher94087]

NM #3 .44 RF, Turkish

Here is a Smith & Wesson, .44 Rim Fire, Turkish, serial number 2613. It has a 1 7/16" cylinder (1.4375"). The chambers Mic at .444".

U.S. Cartridges and Their Handguns, 1795 - 1975, CR Suydam, Beinfield, 1977, has three listings for the .44 RF.

P 102 (6 entries): .44 Short, Rim Fire. Head dimension is .440" or less and all six listings are shorter than 1.4375"-cylinder length.

P 104 (6 entries): .44 Henry Rim Fire, Pointed. Head dimension of one is .444" and 1.532" in length. The other five are .441" or less and these five are shorter than the 1.4375" cylinder.

P 106 (5 entries): .44 Henry Rim Fire Flat. The head dimensions are: 1 - .445"; 1 - .444"; 1 - .442 and 2 - .441". All five are shorter than the 1.4375 cylinder.

Out of 17 listings, only three .44 Rim Fire cartridges will not fit the S&W New Model #3, Turkish revolver.

 

[BMur]

Pistol chamber

Thanks for checking your rare bird Mike.

Your chambers mic as 44 Rimfire Short pistol chambers.

See photos:

The minimum difference between the chamber inner diameter and the case outer diameter is .005 thousandths of an inch. Anything less than that is the wrong case or perhaps a damaged case.

So if your chamber measures .444 then the maximum size the case can be is .439


Only the pistol case qualifies since it continuously measures .440.

Most of the proven Henry cases mic at .444-.445 which is too big and obviously not "designed" for the .444-.445 chamber.


No grading on a curve. The case must be .005 under the chamber. That's at a minimum. You can go up to .007 under without bulging or cracking the case upon discharge.

So if your Turkish example was designed for the Henry cartridge the chambers should all mic at .450. They don't so it's a pistol round.

Murph

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


Well, my No. 3 American 2nd Issue in Rim Fire came today and
I find some interesting differences. First off, the chambers mic
out at .450" - .451". Second, the cylinder is only 1.415" long
(My NM No. 3 cylinders are 1.423" in length and my early No.3
cylinder is 1.455" long).

Also what I find interesting is that the hammer and lockwork
are the 1st type; with the cylinder stop bolt controlled by the
hammer (which is unusual for a No. 3 with the serial number
in the 25,000 range). I know S&W used up a lot of their super-
ceded older design parts when making the Rim Fire models.



Cheers!
Webb

 

[BMur]

Variations

Webb,
Wow, that's amazing. Obviously, there is a much bigger picture here. Mine is a very late 2nd issue 44 Rimfire having the late hammer in the 32,000 range.

Your chambers definitely qualify to chamber the 44 Henry and pretty much all the others including the 44 long as well except for the 44 Rimfire short pistol round.

These were very early cartridge guns so it's possible that they were ordered specific to caliber. In other words the customer could have specified which 44 Rimfire round they wanted.

The only way to prove which 44 Rimfire round is applicable would be possibly factory records and measuring the chambers since the guns weren't caliber marked.

Very interesting.

Murph