Overpressure signs on primers?

[DgoSquatch]

Hello, I recently started reloading for a s&w 629. I'm wondering if I'm seeing overpressure signs with my reloads. The picture shows two cases, the one on the left is a factory load - federal premium 240gr hydra-shok JHP. The one on the right is a reload that I did and wondering if that primer is showing signs of overpressure. The case was trimmed to 1.275" and loading with 24gr of h110 with a 240gr Hornady xtp. Primer was Winchester large pistol. COL was 1.609" with a heavy crimp. I'm using a lee hand press with lee deluxe die set. There doesn't seem to be a big difference between the primers, but the reload seems slightly flatter. The reloaded case also had no problem extracting.

 

[austintexas]

Reloads

I usually go by cratered primer strike (not smooth like yours) and severely flattened primer (flat to the edge of the primer pocket)
Just my 2 cents.
SWCA 892

 

[Rule3]

Looking at handgun primers is like trying to read tea leaves (especially just one)
Over pressure in a handgun you will know and it will be to late!
Cant tell from that picture
Seems like you are within load data range

 

[DgoSquatch]

That's what I've researched, there can be a number of reasons for flattened primers. There hasn't been any cratering. Thanks for the input!

 

[forindooruseonly]

It would help if the picture was in focus.

But, as mentioned, you can't really tell by reading primers appearance.

Stick with loading data from published sources and don't go to max load right off the bat.

 

[DgoSquatch]

Reposted the picture, hopefully better focused.

 

[ajgunner]

If/when new to reloading, you should be starting lower and working your way up.
24gr is a max load of H110 for a 240gr JHP bullet.
While it looks fine to me, you need to do further research to learn the other reasons that can cause flattened primers.

Same load coming out of a 2.75" Redhawk barrel.

 

[Hair Trigger]

Hello, I recently started reloading for a s&w 629. I'm wondering if I'm seeing overpressure signs with my reloads. The picture shows two cases, the one on the left is a factory load - federal premium 240gr hydra-shok JHP. The one on the right is a reload that I did and wondering if that primer is showing signs of overpressure. The case was trimmed to 1.275" and loading with 24gr of h110 with a 240gr Hornady xtp. Primer was Winchester large pistol. COL was 1.609" with a heavy crimp. I'm using a lee hand press with lee deluxe die set. There doesn't seem to be a big difference between the primers, but the reload seems slightly flatter. The reloaded case also had no problem extracting.

The Starline primed case looks okay to me. It's hard to compare two different brands of primer to get a sense of too high pressure. The factory case isn't quite as flat as the Starline case. You could infer two different things from that.
1- the cup of the primer in the Starline case is softer than the factory primer
2- The Starline primed case is loaded to a higher pressure than the factory case, but isn't necessarily too high.

I look for what austintexas mentioned; cratered primers or primers flattened to the point you can barely see the edge of the pocket, they are so flat. If you get to pierced primers, you really need to back off.

All that said, there's really no advantage pushing your loads that far. Faster doesn't mean more accurate, and if you're hunting with the gun, mid-upper range .44M loads are plenty for whitetail, and from a carbine, black bear. (50 yard shots)

 

[Dvus]

...
All that said, there's really no advantage pushing your loads that far. Faster doesn't mean more accurate, and if you're hunting with the gun, mid-upper range .44M loads are plenty for whitetail, and from a carbine, black bear. (50 yard shots)

Sound advice! A 29 or 629 is not the gun to hotrod .44 magnums in, unless you want to rattle it to pieces. Your H110 load MAY be within max listed loads, but they exceed the normal factory loads that the Smiths were designed to run. Use one of the Ruger "Supers" to do that. I did it for years with my Super Blackhawk and developed a load that it loved, but it was way above what the load data suggested as maximum. It made a fireball bright enough to get your attention at high noon, and recoil to match, but that gun absolutely loved it. Some may say it reckless, and I will in no way whatsoever endorse it for someone else to try, but I knew what I was doing and accepted the risks. And above all, made sure nobody was around to catch any shrapnel should it have decided to let go. But there is no way I would ever put one of those in a Smith, they won't take it. As for your loads and pressure signs, flattened or flowing primers are a sign that you have already exceeded maximum pressure, as is sticky extraction. I hope you are weighing each powder charge and not relying on a powder measure to get it right every time. If your gun likes the max load, and you can replicate it exactly every time, I don't see why you can't use it once in a while like hunting or to carry in dangerous game country, but for goodness sake, don't feed your Smith a steady diet of the stuff. A small powder reduction can save a huge amount of wear and tear.

 

[rockquarry]

Generally primer flattening is not a reliable means of determining pressure.

However, something I've noticed in sixty years of handloading...keep the changeable factors to a minimum, like using the same brass lot, primers from the same batch, same powder lot, same bullet and the same ambient conditions, same gun, and increasing a powder charge in small increments.

Observe the primers at each increase in powder charge while staying within book figures and recording all velocities. Primers will not always flatten, but often do. If you have a situation where they do flatten, the flattening will increase as powders charges increase. This is as good as you'll get with trying to read primer flattening. Not 100% reliable, and again, it won't work in every situation.

Chronograph figures aren't 100% reliable for determining pressure either, but they are usually much better indicators of potentially high pressure than flattened primers are.

 

[alwslate]

Neither primer is flattened. If you read the section on pressure in the Speer manual you will know that it takes about 80,000 PSI to actually flatten primers. 24 grs of H110/296 with a magnum primer and 240 gr JHP is a standard full power handload that is probably a bit below factory ammo. About 36,000 PSI. Recoil batters S&W revolvers, not pressure.

 

[cmj8591]

Those primers look fine. That H110 load shouldn't cause a problem and is below the max listed. The reality with H110 and 296 is that you can't get enough of it in the case to cause a pressure problem. They can cause a problem if there is too little and a lot of air space in the case. Flattened primers can be caused by a lot of things other than over pressure. Sometimes it's just that some brands are softer than others. Some brass have sloppier primer pockets or larger flash holes. A weak hammer or firing pin spring. All of the above, none of the above. The point is that it is hard to judge pressure issues by looking at fired primers. If you start getting primers that blow out or burn through, then you might want to back off, especially if you are getting hard extraction. But your primers look fine and your load is within recommendations and should shoot very well out of your 629.

 

[Sevens]

Generally primer flattening is not a reliable means of determining pressure.

However, something I've noticed in sixty years of handloading...keep the changeable factors to a minimum, like using the same brass lot, primers from the same batch, same powder lot, same bullet and the same ambient conditions, same gun, and increasing a powder charge in small increments.

Observe the primers at each increase in powder charge while staying within book figures and recording all velocities. Primers will not always flatten, but often do. If you have a situation where they do flatten, the flattening will increase as powders charges increase. This is as good as you'll get with trying to read primer flattening. Not 100% reliable, and again, it won't work in every situation.

This is eloquently stated, please make sure you read and re-read, especially the key parts I have bolded.

Way too many folks attempt to come to false conclusions with primer reading. I think you will have a much better indication of pressure if you load six rounds, fire all of them quickly and then open the cylinder and cautiously eject the brass.

If you get almost zero resistance in ejecting the brass, your pressure is not an issue and you can skip the step of trying to conjure false conclusions from reading tea leaves.

 

[DgoSquatch]

Great info, very appreciated. This load will be used for black bear hunting from a tree stand. Shots would be close range, probably not exceeding 20yds. For that yardage I bet the 23grs h110 would be fine. No sense, beating up the gun, but I do hope the smith won't rattle apart with max loads. Recoil wasn't tremendous and I do like to practice with what I will hunt with. I have also been running berry plated bullets for general plinking loads. 14 gr of accurate #7, very mild.

 

[mikerjf]

Just for future reference, you can punch out the used primer and measure its O.D…. Compare against a new unused one of the same brand. Any kind of spreading at the top will increase the OD.

But then, you don’t want this either.

 

[nksmfamjp]

Hello, I recently started reloading for a s&w 629. …loading with 24gr of h110 with a 240gr Hornady xtp. Primer was Winchester large pistol. COL was 1.609" with a heavy crimp…..

That 24gr h110 load under 240gr bullet is a stout load. I believe you found data for that, right? It is probably at max or just over in a S&W. How are your velocities?

You have to put the Federal load in perspective. A round like 44mag can over power their JHP bullets causing bad performance in gel. So, I would guess they back off the gas until expansion vs penetration are right.

First, I think your primers are within the realm of being ok. Primer flattening is the act of the start pressure pushing the primer out to the recoil shield first. Then the case is pushed back by the max pressure. For cratering and flattening, there are a bunch of gun specific factors that make gun to gun comparisons impossible. 2 rounds in the same gun, they as well as primer swipe in some semi-autos can be used to compare 2 rounds from the same gun with the same primer….aha, I’ll bet you are not using Federal primers and Federal likely is! Since you have a good flat primer, if my velocities were right, I’d call that max.

As for the guy who said primers start to flatten at 80000 psi…..are you saying this load is over 80000 psi? It has some flattening.

 

[Nevada Ed]

The brass case has more pressure than the nickel case.

Gold: surface of primer is flattened.
Nickel: edge of primer is still round and no where near the cup rim.

 

[Dvus]

Those primers look fine. That H110 load shouldn't cause a problem and is below the max listed. The reality with H110 and 296 is that you can't get enough of it in the case to cause a pressure problem...

I'm sorry, but I'm calling BULL on this one! I can testify from experience that you can easily get enough H110 in a cartridge to cause a problem. While I'm sure that the statement was well intentioned, it is nevertheless a very careless and dangerous assumption. A 2 grain overcharge is definitely possible, and the fact that all I had to do was beat the cylinder out of my Super Blackhawk with a mallet and then hammer the case out to get the gun operational again was nothing short of divine providence. I quickly stopped using that powder measure and started weighing each max load.

 

[ajgunner]

Great info, very appreciated. This load will be used for black bear hunting from a tree stand. Shots would be close range, probably not exceeding 20yds. For that yardage I bet the 23grs h110 would be fine.

From that range you want to be sure of 2 things.

1) Much closer and you might risk burning some of the trophy bear hair.

2) Might want to think about some sort of quickly deployed hearing protection in the stand. Even a single round this hot coming out of a revolver barrel, will certainly do some damage you won't recover.

 

[Sevens]

I'm sorry, but I'm calling BULL on this one! I can testify from experience that you can easily get enough H110 in a cartridge to cause a problem. While I'm sure that the statement was well intentioned, it is nevertheless a very careless and dangerous assumption. A 2 grain overcharge is definitely possible, and the fact that all I had to do was beat the cylinder out of my Super Blackhawk with a mallet and then hammer the case out to get the gun operational again was nothing short of divine providence. I quickly stopped using that powder measure and started weighing each max load.

I agree that he could have found a better collection of words to make a point. Let me see if I can try:

You cannot overload a .44 Mag case with H-110/W-296 enough to blow up a modern handgun. This is because this powder is too slow burning. On the flipside, if you were to use Titegroup, Bullseye or AA#2, you could absolutely grenade -ANY- handun, modern or not, with .44 Magnum. You could send metal flying and you would not even need to fill the case.