CASE CLOSED Is this No 3 revolver genuine?

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

Dr. Roy Jinks( Smith & Wesson historian) lists the 5” barrel available on the 1st Model Russian and not available on the 44 American.

More recent study of the S&W daybook shows one 5" barrel American
being made. The American was made with 5", 5-1/2" 6" 6-1/4", 6-1/2"
and 7" barrels in addition to the standard 8" length.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[Incendiary]

It has to be a 44 Russian barrel.
The photo of the cylinder is inconclusive due to a line visible suggesting it’s a 44 Russian caliber.
Murph

You happen to have a close up photo of a 44 Russian Cylinder for a No 3? That would be helpful in IDing it if someone does.

 

[Incendiary]

Hi There,



I tend to agree that this revolver was returned to the factory for
refinishing and the barrel stamp was re-done at that time. When
you get it, take the grips off and look for a factory return date.


Cheers!
Webb

I'm leaning this way too. I have yet to see photos of an early (1870s) S&W of any type having this barrel address. Only time I've seen it is on the much later examples like the "New Model 3".

 

[BMur]

Oddities

The 44 American and 44 Model 1 Russian are literally intertwined in oddities and alterations that make evaluating them difficult and very often they are evaluated in error. Clearly apparent in this thread.

You can see from the photos the cylinders are identical except for the caliber. The 44 Russian excepts a 44 Mag case about 3/4 down until it hits the case stop.

The 44 American does not even begin to chamber a 44 Mag. That’s why I suggested using an EMPTY 44 Mag for the test.
It eliminates opinions.

I don’t think anyone has actually seen a legitimate 5” barrel Model 1 Russian with barrel address so the barrel address evaluation is pure opinion.

In my opinion it’s correct. The stamp is correct. It’s not faked in my opinion.

Once you have confirmed the caliber we can eliminate the 44 American from the mix.

Murph

 

[Incendiary]

Thanks BMur for the detailed photos and comparison of fitment of the 44 mag case - very helpful.

I think we have communally conclusively established that the barrel isn’t a fraud of some sort. It’s either original or shortened at S&W which is great.

The story is that it was converted from 44 American to 44 Russian. We can find out what it is chambered in now, but sounds like if it turns out to be 44 Russian, the only way to figure out what it was originally is with letter, hey?

 

[BMur]

Endless possibilities

When you don’t have matching numbers or assembly numbers the possibilities are endless.

My 6” 1st Model Russian is in the 16,000 serial number range and it has matching assembly numbers not serial numbers on the back of the cylinder and frame.

What is extremely difficult about this variation are the oddities regarding the Russian contract guns. That’s what yours appears to be since it has a matching serial number on the cylinder and frame. The Americans also had assembly numbers like example A409 on all parts.

A factory letter won’t help since yours is an assembled gun. It screams 44 Russian and so does the barrel/ cylinder.

The story that it was an original 44 American frame is not supported by the lack of assembly numbers.

It’s possible that many of the rejected 1st Model Russians( Part of the Russian contract) were assembled and sold later but they would have matching numbers if assembled by the factory so who knows?

There were also overlapping or duplicate serial numbers between the 44 Americans and the Model 1 Russians.

So what exactly would you tell the historical dept?

It really is too bad the barrel and latch do not have numbers on them. Without those numbers it’s an assembled gun with endless possibilities

Murph

 

[Incendiary]

When you don’t have matching numbers or assembly numbers the possibilities are endless.

My 6” 1st Model Russian is in the 16,000 serial number range and it has matching assembly numbers not serial numbers on the back of the cylinder and frame.

What is extremely difficult about this variation are the oddities regarding the Russian contract guns. That’s what yours appears to be since it has a matching serial number on the cylinder and frame. The Americans also had assembly numbers like example A409 on all parts.

A factory letter won’t help since yours is an assembled gun. It screams 44 Russian and so does the barrel/ cylinder.

The story that it was an original 44 American frame is not supported by the lack of assembly numbers.

It’s possible that many of the rejected 1st Model Russians( Part of the Russian contract) were assembled and sold later but they would have matching numbers if assembled by the factory so who knows?

There were also overlapping or duplicate serial numbers between the 44 Americans and the Model 1 Russians.

So what exactly would you tell the historical dept?

It really is too bad the barrel and latch do not have numbers on them. Without those numbers it’s an assembled gun with endless possibilities

Murph

Gotcha. The barrel and the latch are unknowns presently - I don't have photos of those areas to check if they match or not. That and the 44 Mag test are next to determining its story.

We'll see what happens between me and the person whose possession it is in!

It was said to be a No. 2 revolver. I went to see it and was so weirded out by it that I did not buy it. I took a bunch of photos and explained to the seller that it's definitely not a No. 2 and its not a "normal" No. 3 either, and more research would be needed. And that I couldn't even make an offer because neither of us know what it is. I think he may have felt insulted or something, he hasn't returned my texts. Time will tell.

 

[BMur]

Cylinder serial number

Ok,
Well I hope he does respond to your inquiry.
I looked again at your cylinder photo. I zoomed in and that number looks like it’s been stamped over. The photo quality is poor so who knows but it doesn’t look right to me.

I think the barrel/latch is the only real mystery here. If they respond be polite and ask for a photo of those numbers.


Murph

 

[iby]

I guess if you cannot buy the gun there will be no letter.
I would buy it for the novelty if the price was not insane.
The only explanation is a factory alteration IMO

 

[Incendiary]

Ok,
Well I hope he does respond to your inquiry.
I looked again at your cylinder photo. I zoomed in and that number looks like it’s been stamped over. The photo quality is poor so who knows but it doesn’t look right to me.

I think the barrel/latch is the only real mystery here. If they respond be polite and ask for a photo of those numbers.

Murph

It's compressed during upload for sure, on my end it looks like the cylinder stamping is legit, the 2s are pretty deep on the top and shallow on the bottom, I think the original would show through there.

 

[Incendiary]

I guess if you cannot buy the gun there will be no letter.
I would buy it for the novelty if the price was not insane.
The only explanation is a factory alteration IMO

We shall see. I don't know if I will be able to procure it.

It's Canada so they are all overpriced haha.

The price of it is in line with a standard model of similar condition. If the seller gave me a sweet deal, I'd go for it at this point.

Ideally (as a keeper) I want one with better mechanics, this one is "good" to "very good" cosmetically and good mechanically, but I want one that is excellent mechanically.

I think it's unusual enough to be interesting, and I could market it well...but the condition isn't good enough for a quick sell for the price he's asking. At least I don't think so. Granted it's advertised wrong, but it's still been for sale for some 1-2 months.

 

[iby]

For what it's worth, they are just underpriced here in the States
Good luck
Mike

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


I read something a couple of weeks ago that may pertain to the
revolver in question. I didn't want to mention it until I could con-
sult the source.

"Roy Double reported a five-inch barreled having the
marking used on later revolvers: "SMITH & WESSON,
SPRINGFIELD, MASS." The author has not observed or
otherwise verified this short marking..."

Whether this is the same revolver as the one mentioned is just
conjecture but it is an interesting coincidence.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[BMur]

44 Mod 1 Russian

We should have caught this earlier but that must be a Model 1 Russian frame since it has a safety hammer.
The American Frame did not see that transition until serial number in the 25,000 range so it’s a Russian frame.

It’s looking more and more like a matching rare gun to me.

I sure hope we aren’t going to visit regretville on this one. This fish needs to be caught!


Murph

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


while I agree that the OP's No. 3 is probably a Russian Model,
I disagree on the serial number range the Russian interlocking
hammer and barrel catch were incorporated into the No. 3
American line.

It gets a bit confusing because of the 500 Russian rejects that
were already numbered in the Russian contract series. These
rejects were finished, barrels re-stamped and new .44 American
cylinders installed. They were numbered in the 3K to 3.6K serial
number range (of the Russian contract series). And sold on the
commercial market.

The regular No. 3 American was in the 6.5K to 6.9K serial number
range when the switchover took place and was completed by about
serial number 7,000.

Now, the No. 3 American in .44 RF was a different story. S&W
had lots of the non-interlocking RF hammers and decided to use
them. So the RF No. 3 American didn't switch over to the inter-
locking hammer and barrel catch until after 26K range. These
RF Americans also were still using the older hammer controlled
cylinder stop.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[iby]

Webb
I agree with you on the hammers.
My 1st model Russian 19,xxx has the interlock.
I would also like to point out that the OP says the barrel is 4 1/2 not 5.
P.S. This thread is fun

 

[Incendiary]

Hi There,


I read something a couple of weeks ago that may pertain to the
revolver in question. I didn't want to mention it until I could con-
sult the source.

"Roy Double reported a five-inch barreled having the
marking used on later revolvers: "SMITH & WESSON,
SPRINGFIELD, MASS." The author has not observed or
otherwise verified this short marking..."

Whether this is the same revolver as the one mentioned is just
conjecture but it is an interesting coincidence.


Cheers!
Webb

I must know the context of this excerpt. Can you let me know what book this is from?

 

[Incendiary]

We should have caught this earlier but that must be a Model 1 Russian frame since it has a safety hammer.
The American Frame did not see that transition until serial number in the 25,000 range so it’s a Russian frame.

It’s looking more and more like a matching rare gun to me.

I sure hope we aren’t going to visit regretville on this one. This fish needs to be caught!


Murph

BMur - thanks for this tidbit. Supica's 2006 edition S&W catalog states that even first model Americans have half cock and full cock both. The second model in the serial range that this one is in also have the interlocking hammer. Supica also does not list a 5in barrel for the Russian models, typically the Russian commercially sold models will have the "Russian" stamp on the barrel too if made for commercial market, right?

Edit: Going with the Russian theory, I think it could also be a first model Russian commercial gun, sold in the US, that was then cut down and re-stamped with the "New Model" type barrel address. Again, referring to Supica, he makes mention that there was a Russian Rejects program where around 500 units were shipped back to the states, russian markings were removed and they were re-labeled and sold commercially in the states. But 6in is the shortest barrel he mentions for Russian contract first models.

And we know it's not a Russian contract gun since there are no markings indicating this, no tpyical Cyrillic or eagle markings.

I still can't get past the barrel address that only seems to show up on New Model 3 guns. I will wait for an update below on the context of the excerpt regarding that address.


I'm sure I can obtain this piece if I wanted to bad enough - just get someone else to buy it if he is to embarrassed to talk to me.

But I unfortunately don't have the money to get trigger-happy and buy an unknown for the same price as a verified original model. And I don't have the luxury of enthusiast friends to do a group buy study project on it lol.

 

[Incendiary]

Webb
I agree with you on the hammers.
My 1st model Russian 19,xxx has the interlock.
I would also like to point out that the OP says the barrel is 4 1/2 not 5.
P.S. This thread is fun

The barrel is just under 5in, I rounded down which was silly, I should have been more clear in my original post. I updated it.

I'm not sure how precise the advertised barrel lengths were.

I'm having fun too you guys are true enthusiasts. It's a treat.

 

[BMur]

Opps

Opps!
My mistake on the safety hammer. Happens every time I post from memory.

I think all we need at this point are the numbers. Good photos of the barrel/latch numbers.

Without them I think we’ve reached a dead end.

Oh, barrel lengths are definitely not an exact science. Antique Smith & Wesson revolvers often see variance of up to 1/4”.

I like the theory that this might be a late assembled gun using up old stock. Very possible.

Murph