Terrible experience purchasing a No. 3 revolver

[Incendiary]

Hi guys. Canadian member sharing an experience about an antique No. 3 purchased from a USA seller. Please weigh in. Am I wrong here?

Edit: if you want to see the listing it's back up for sale on Guns International listing # 102639383.

I recently purchased a gorgeous No. 3 New Model that I found on Guns International, being sold by MISTERLUGER, real name Walter Smeddy. It was advertised as a .44 Russian gun. Before I bought it, I had the seller confirm that the cylinder had the tell-tale "ring" case stop towards the front of the cylinder. The seller verified over the phone (silly me for not getting photos) that the ring is there. I sent the money, a couple weeks later the gun shows up.

In my eyes it clearly cannot be a .44 Russian, the rear end of the chambers are way wider than they should be. I compared measurements with a .44 Russian loaded cartridge. The .44 Russian cartridge will drop in, but has significant unsupported area for the half of the brass closest to the rim of the case. At least 10 thou bigger than the chamber mouths should be based on SAAMI specs for 44 Special (parent case of 44 Russian). Also way wider than my other .44 Russian gun that I compared to. It has the 1-9/16 cylinder and the short ejector housing. Serial #377.

So at this point I reached out to MISTERLUGER, the seller (within 24 hours of receiving the gun) and told him what happened. Flat out refused to acknowledge that it could be anything other than .44 Russian since the guy who sold it to him said so. Keep in mind, this guy is a licensed FFL in the states and sells tons of guns.

He refuses to offer any advice or cost related help getting the revolver back to him. Refuses to provide any relevant information that may help at the border, despite being an FFL. He must know the law, but refuses to be of any help to a Canadian customer who has never done this before.

Finally figured out how to get the gun to him by doing my own homework. He refunded my original purchase, but refused to help out with any of the associated costs I had to absorb. About $500 between everything.

The best part? It's up for sale again labeled as a .44 Russian...

So far it's been a month long cost-me-$500 headache over someone else's mistake. Is there any action I can take against this guy and/or has anyone else in the antique community had this happen? What did you do?

 

[murphydog]

Sorry for your troubles. I have never bought anything off that website but I would check if they have either a feedback or dispute resolution service. Since you have already returned the gun "voluntarily" you may not have much luck, but it may be worth a try. The seller may have the consequence of not being able to sell there any more and that might give your dispute some leverage.

 

[Incendiary]

Sorry for your troubles. I have never bought anything off that website but I would check if they have either a feedback or dispute resolution service.

They do and I've submitted a message to them. That has never got me far before, but I suppose we will see what happens.

The thing I am most upset about is that it's downright dangerous to list the wrong caliber on an old gun that is otherwise unmarked. Ruptured brass, exploding cylinders...scary stuff. The guy is 80 years old too. Between his age and the way he treaded me, seems like he really couldn't care less.

 

[murphydog]

In the photo, the cylinder appears to have been refinished. Did it have a matching serial number and was the barrel bore .429"?

The cylinder is too long to be a Schofield part, but maybe someone bored it out to .45 caliber? If they did that without altering the .44 Russian barrel, I agree the result of firing it would be...notable.

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


"In my eyes it clearly cannot be a .44 Russian, the mouth end of the chambers are way wider than they should be. I compared measurements with a .44 Russian loaded cartridge. The .44 Russian cartridge will drop in, but has significant unsupported area for the top half of the brass. At least 10 thou bigger than the chamber mouths"

It sounds like it was a rare 44-40 "Frontier" model. I believe they
have the same groove diameter as the 44 Russian (.429").


Cheers!
Webb

 

[Incendiary]

In the photo, the cylinder appears to have been refinished. Did it have a matching serial number and was the barrel bore .429"?

The cylinder is too long to be a Schofield part, but maybe someone bored it out to .45 caliber? If they did that without altering the .44 Russian barrel, I agree the result of firing it would be...notable.

It was fully refinished, and I was more than happy with the cosmetic condition. Numbers matching on butt, barrel and cylinder. Didn't take the stocks off as I had seen enough to know it's not a .44 Russian. Measured the barrel bore at the muzzle end but can't remember what the reading was. I do remember that it was not alarming. The cylinder was way off though.

 

[Incendiary]

Hi There, It sounds like it was a rare 44-40 "Frontier" model. I believe they
have the same groove diameter as the 44 Russian (.429").

This could be the case. Is there any way to get SWHF confirmation on caliber without lettering it?

It's so upsetting about the blatant lie regarding the tell tale cylinder ring, and the fact that it's re-posted incorrectly again. I want to "do something" to save someone else the trouble of dealing with this guy…

 

[murphydog]

When you wrote "mouth end of the chambers", did you mean the end toward the barrel or the rear? And the same with "top end of the brass", the bullet or the rim end?

If it fit a tapered round, snug at the bullet and loose at the rim, very likely a .44/40 as Webb noted.

 

[Incendiary]

When you wrote "mouth end of the chambers", did you mean the end toward the barrel or the rear? And the same with "top end of the brass", the bullet or the rim end?

If it fit a tapered round, snug at the bullet and loose at the rim, very likely a .44/40 as Webb noted.

Edited for clarity. Regarding "tapered round" it seems based on my observations that the cylinder walls were tapered, where the .44 Russian cartridge is straight walled. The Russian cartridge dropped right in, but fit notably loose on the rim side of the cartridge.

I know for certain it's not a Russian chambering, or at least not anymore, if it ever was.

What I don't know how to do is warn others or get back all the money I spent moving this thing around.

 

[deadin]

Any strange proof marks on it? Although if it has been refinished they may have been buffed out... The only sure way may be to drop the $100 for a letter.
IIRC the NM #3 was chambered in several European cartridges.

 

[Incendiary]

Any strange proof marks on it? Although if it has been refinished they may have been buffed out... The only sure way may be to drop the $100 for a letter.
IIRC the NM #3 was chambered in several European cartridges.

No strange proofs. All markings crisp.

I'm hesitant to buy a letter after being so far in the hole already. If the case ends up hinging on it (if Guns International gets involved) I will.

The NM3 had many chamberings, yep. That's why I was careful to verify it with the seller before buying. But doesn't do much good if ya buy from a liar.

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

This could be the case. Is there any way to get SWHF confirmation on caliber without lettering it?

I don't know but based on the information provided, I think it is
more than likely. To wit, the low serial number 377 AND having
the later short style ejector housing.

One thing, all Frontier models have the later extractor and I can
see that so does the revolver in the pic.

And the Frontier model was given a separate serial number series
so this is how one comes up with a low serial number which
should have the gear type and early housing but has the late
model, this is the reason.

Yes, the 44-40 is a tapered round (or more correctly a very
shallow bottle neck). The base is .471" and the neck is .443"
and .458" at the shoulder.


Cheers,
Webb

 

[BMur]

Frontier

Being from Canada and knowing how much it costs to ship an antique etc? One must do their own homework.
It's definitely a frontier 44 WCF. The low serial number and long frame 1 9/16 cylinder screams Frontier 44/40.
Sellers often get calibers wrong. 32's are 38's. 38's are 41's. It's endless.
What was that old expression? Let the buyer beware!
I just purchased a listed 44rf that I know for sure is a 38. I don't even bother anymore trying to convince the seller they are wrong.
You have to know before you buy or be willing to take the risk based on the selling price.
What I see from your photo it's pretty obvious that it's a Frontier 44 WCF.

Murph

 

[iby]

It sure looks like a 44-40
Not approved for Canada.

 

[BMur]

Customs error

Maybe we can blame customs for letting it through?
How could customs miss that?
I think customs would be clueless.

Murph

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


"Maybe we can blame customs for letting it through?
How could customs miss that?
I think customs would be clueless."

This maybe true but I'm sure that the Custom officials just looked
at the description supplied by the seller.


Cheers,
Webb

 

[Incendiary]

Being from Canada and knowing how much it costs to ship an antique etc? One must do their own homework…
You have to know before you buy or be willing to take the risk based on the selling price.

Precisely. That's exactly why I had the seller confirm the .44 Russian cylinder "ring" case stop. He confirmed it very convincingly over the phone and I trusted him. Shame on me.

He flat out lied.

Upon inspecting it after I received it, the ring is blatantly not there. First time I have ever bought a gun that was misidentified - I always try to ask the right questions. Just not used to being lied to, esp by a "verified dealer" "FFL holder" "antique expert" type.

 

[Incendiary]

Maybe we can blame customs for letting it through?
How could customs miss that?
I think customs would be clueless.

Murph

The seller asked me how I wanted it declared for customs. I told him to declare it's an antique S&W. Far better they know and inspect than inspect expecting to find something else…He declared it as a clock. I told him to include the FRT document that I provided in the parcel (showing caliber and antique status). Wasn't there when I opened the box, in fact there was no documentation showing what the gun was at all. Despite the seller verbally declaring he would include it.

Shame on me for trusting him.

 

[Incendiary]

It sure looks like a 44-40
Not approved for Canada.

If you're right about the chambering, it would have to be "paper worked" to stay in Canada. It's not a prohibited caliber but they also don't recognize 44-40 as antique. Bureaucratic nonsense and I would not want the headache.

 

[Heinz]

His name is Walter Smeddy and he does not have a good reputation
Just a moment.... His Lugers are way overpriced
I am sorry you are going through this. There are lots of good vendors here on the forum. You are fortunate to have gotten most of your funds back.