Has the Scout Rifle Outlived it's Hey Day?

[Mike SC Hunter]

I'm a fan of the scout rifle. I've had some very nice ones in the past. I don't know that I'd say "No" to one even now. Especially an original Steyr, although I really like the current Savages and Rugers as well.

In some ways, the parameters of a scout rifle still elude us, such as the 6.5 lb weight limit. In other ways, such as optics most of the goals intended are achieved quite gloriously with red dots, magnifiers, LPVOs, etc.

Of course, one of the goals of the forward mounted optic was to have easy access for loading and unloading, perhaps even with stripper clips, as I recall. On many bolt action rifles, this is a moot point, due to enclosed push feed actions anyways. And with the advent of 5,10, 20 round mags...adapting mags from AR 10s for example, it hardly seems as critical as it would have been back in the day of Remington 600s and 660s.

Lightweight, quick handling, medium range, medium caliber. That sounds to me alot like a Ruger American with a LPVO or even a decent red dot on it.

The thought of it's versatility is certainly legit. It does seem to have been built with a more romanticized one man vs. the world notion in mind. That doesn't really quite match the thinking of our modern world. Having said that, I went through a time when we were pretty dang broke and an earlier Savage Scout rifle fed my family. I also knew I was far from unarmed and helpless with it propped near my bed. So while the one gun notion seems to pretty much be a fantasy or a hypothetical exercise for us active gun nuts, I think a fella could do much worse than a Scout rifle.

With all the technology thrown out there these days, I still don't think a semi auto can ever be as light and nimble as an appropriate bolt gun.

One of my biggest scout rifle issues would be shooting it. Ammo has become outrageously priced, even for reloading. I paid $62 for a pound of Unique the other day! Not rifle powder, but I'm sure you get the gist.

If only Col. Cooper were here to lend his thoughts...

Me...I sadly think the world is moving on from the Scout Rifle concept. Semi auto rifles reign supreme. Many popular bolt actions no longer have stocks, but a "chassis" to my eyes a chassis kinda looks like a stock, but it weighs 2-3 times as much, and costs up to ten times as much. Most guys I know claim to be 1K-2K yard shooters, utilize bipods, 30x scopes, etc. Now...that ain't to speak ill of the precision crowd...but it sure ain't to be mixed up with the concept of a scout rifle.

Now me....I would love to see the scout rifle reconsidered. With the lightweight carbon fiber barrels, the range of optics, magazines, calibers
...I think it's possible to make the scout rifle better than we ever imagined back in the day.


I'd be curious what y'all think.

Jeff Cooper's solution to a problem that never existed............Mounting a long eye relief pistol scope halfway down the gun......Doesn't work for anything except play time. Sucks for hunting and quick pickup of the recticle on hunting game in the woods or open areas.
Idea is sorta like Steve McQueen's mare's leg.........All but useless. Except for Tactical Tommys.

 

[Faulkner]

I enjoyed Col. Cooper's musings in the gun rags, but I think the scout concept's continued development is not far behind the Bren Ten.

 

[Shrek Of The Arctic]

Seems to me the Bren Ten is the grandpappy of the entire slew of 10mm handguns we now enjoy. Seems a heckuva high compliment.

 

[BarryinIN]

I didn't like Scouts at all, and never understood the point. Then I handled one, and got it.
The forward scope was QUICK on target. The best way I can explain it is it was like there was a reticle mounted at the front sight. Point the rifle at a target and my eye was looking at it through the reticle.

Yes, I know that's more or less how it works with any sighting system. Somehow to me, this seems different. I guess it feels like pointing with my finger but my finger has crosshairs.

For some, it might take a while to see it that way. Admittedly, I seem to have picked that up quicker than most. I have a feeling it's because I usually have trouble keeping both eyes open when shooting, but I practically can't make myself close one eye with this system. It forces me to do things right.

Is it worth the trouble? That's a good question. Scope choices are incredibly limited compared to conventional scopes.
Unless a rifle was built for a forward mounted scope, it is a project to make it happen.
Also, if you get early morning sun behind you it can wash out the scope.

But the forward scope is NOT A NECESSARY COMPONENT of a rifle for it to be called a Scout. This is a point many do not realize. A good set of peep sights count, per the definition by the guy who thought up the rifle.

Saying one doesn't like the Scout rifle because of the forward mounted scope is like saying you don't care for ARs because you dislike red dot sights.

 

[6string]

Jeff Cooper just liked to hear himself talk, usually offering answers and opinions to questions nobody asked. It didn’t matter what the subject was.
Typically, he began with a vague premise, then he would start piling on abitrary qualifications or details. Occasionally, the result was mildly entertaining, even (unintentionally?) comedic. These long-winded monologues were a sort of mental “Rube Goldberg” process, and the outcome was usually a bit of a mess. The “scout rifle” is a perfect example.
If you ever watched “The Simpsons”, the best analogy would be the episode where Homer Simpson designs a new car. It was supposed to combine every feature and idea he thought would define the ultimate all-purpose vehicle. (See attached)
Of course, the resulting eyesore was a flop! Now, re-read the title posted for this thread!

In general terms, just about any good hunting rifle or military surplus carbine would suffice in the role. The crucial factor, conveniently overlooked, is a competent marksman.
To underscore the point, read “Never Surrender: My Thirty Year War” by Hiroo Onoda. He was a WWII Japanese holdout that fought a guerrilla war on Lubang Island from 1944-1974. He spent thirty years, mostly in the jungle, gathering intelligence, carrying out raids, hunting, and living off the land, all the while convinced Japan was still fighting and winning the war. His rifle? A 7.7mm Arisaka. (See third picture)
With that being said, most folks would be better served if they simply had a better background in the fundamentals of rifle marksmanship, and perhaps some good instruction in smallbore or high power competitive shooting. From that point, you can make your own intelligent choices concerning stock shape, stock fitting, and sights.
You’d be much better off than listening to Cooper’s endless ramblings.
In fact, you’d be better off just reading “The Rifle Book” (1949) by Jack O’Connor. Besides his fondness for the Winchester 70 in .270, he was a strong advocate of handy carbines, such as his custom 7mm Mauser 98. (See the attached photo.)
That more than suffices in the “Scout rifle” role, and does it with a lot more class! Sure, you can quibble about details like iron sights. So, go ahead, add a Williams Foolproof receiver sight: problem solved 100 years ago!

As has already been pointed out, Jeff Cooper was a salesman. No surprise, therefore, that his chosen platform for promoting his rifle was “Guns & Ammo” magazine, home of articles such as: “Revolver vs. Auto: Which is Best” or “9mm vs. 45 ACP: for Service and Defense” and other such erudite fodder.
And, maybe, that was/is a significant point: to create a market demand for a (not so) new product.
But, more importantly, Jeff Cooper was a cultist. Beyond the hyperbole and salesmanship, from reading his books and articles, what he really sought was a band of worshipping followers.
He wasn’t interested in your ideas. He wanted you to adhere to his. And, hence, the “scout rifle”.

 

[petepeterson]

What was his beef with the Savage interpretation?

I believe he felt it was an inferior representation of his idea. He was pretty thick with Steyr after a long process of bringing his vision to fruition.

Ironically, when he began discussing the concept, he felt there were quite a few styles and models that would make a good scout, but by the end, you had one of his originals, a Steyr .308, a Steyr .376, or a cheap knockoff "pseudo-scout."
That was the choices.

 

[murphydog]

My Savage Scout (which the late Colonel frowned upon) is a handy little thing when it comes to whitetails in PA. My favorite deer rifle.
The LER scope takes a little getting used to, but with some practice, it does make a lot of sense. Especially when a quick shot is required. Off a benchrest, it shouldn't make much of a difference either way.

I had one, put one of the Leupold Scout Scopes on it. Definitely light and handy but somewhat brutal to shoot from the bench, even with Remington "Reduced Recoil" .308 loads, so away it went.

 

[Brian Parrish]

I didn't like Scouts at all, and never understood the point. Then I handled one, and got it.
The forward scope was QUICK on target. The best way I can explain it is it was like there was a reticle mounted at the front sight. Point the rifle at a target and my eye was looking at it through the reticle.

Yes, I know that's more or less how it works with any sighting system. Somehow to me, this seems different. I guess it feels like pointing with my finger but my finger has crosshairs.

For some, it might take a while to see it that way. Admittedly, I seem to have picked that up quicker than most. I have a feeling it's because I usually have trouble keeping both eyes open when shooting, but I practically can't make myself close one eye with this system. It forces me to do things right.

Is it worth the trouble? That's a good question. Scope choices are incredibly limited compared to conventional scopes.
Unless a rifle was built for a forward mounted scope, it is a project to make it happen.
Also, if you get early morning sun behind you it can wash out the scope.

But the forward scope is NOT A NECESSARY COMPONENT of a rifle for it to be called a Scout. This is a point many do not realize. A good set of peep sights count, per the definition by the guy who thought up the rifle.

Saying one doesn't like the Scout rifle because of the forward mounted scope is like saying you don't care for ARs because you dislike red dot sights.

But the forward mounted scope is to the stupid and ignorant, the ONLY feature that makes a scout rifle. Jeff Cooper's scout concept is only applicable to a rifleman who has already perfected the techniques described in his book, "The Art of the Rifle". Even then it is far more important to learn the anatomy of whatever you are hunting.

Cooper liked to hunt in South Africa and in the Veldt at the ranges encountered, the scout rifle is a bit more convenient in some ways.

Criticizing Jeff Cooper without understanding him is a current fad on the gun webs.

Kind Regards!
BrianD

 

[TheTinMan]

Out of all of the features Cooper specified for a scout rifle, the forward-mounted, long eye relief scope is the most out dated to me. A 2x or 3x prism optic would be great. So would any one of the many LVPOs available today.

I have a Springfield Armory M1A “Scout” with a Leupold FX II Scout scope. The forward mount is necessary to get a good cheek weld without blocking the rather violent action of that rifle. I like the setup a lot, but my Rossi R-95 (Marlin 336 clone) in .30-30 fits the “handy rifle good enough for nearly everything” concept better IMHO. I like the 2x Primary Arms prism on the Rossi better than the older Leupold “scout scope” because the eye box is very forgiving, it lets in more light, and it has an etched reticle with illumination added.

A Browning BLR takedown in .308 would be an excellent “scout rifle” but for the very limited magazine capacity. It’s lightweight and short for the barrel length. The action is very fast, and mine at least is nicely accurate.

Perhaps someone should tell Kevin Brittingham at Q to market his Fix rifle as a “Jeff Cooper scout rifle”. The reaction would be hilarious. However, the Fix actually fits virtually all of the parameters. It is lightweight. The “stock” is metal. The bolt throw is 90 degrees and the action is very quick. You can mount backup iron sights easily. It takes 20-round SR25 magazines. You can get a Fix chambered in .308. The catch is that the Fix is stupidly expensive for what it is.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

Try hunting pre sunrise and post sunset with a scout setup and you'll be going home early. With a(good) conventional scope set with a 5-7mm exit pupil you can stay easily hunt those early and late hours.

 

[Rodan]

I've always liked the Scout rifle concept, but technology and the market have long passed it by. You have to remember that the concept had its genesis at a time when semi-auto battle rifles were very heavy and cumbersome, and the AR platform was only available in 5.56.

The scout concept worked great if you wanted a handy carbine for intermediate ranges in a larger caliber. Today, you can build a small frame AR in an intermediate caliber (or even .308) with modern optics that will meet the 'scout' requirements, and be far more capable.

I had a Ruger GSR, and wasn't that impressed with it, and eventually built a nice little 7.62x39 CZ scout rifle. It was a very nice little 5.5lb, 200 yard rifle, but honestly didn't do anything an AR platform wouldn't do better these days. But that wasn't the case when Cooper proposed the concept.

 

[Piwo]

I really wished the 307 and 356 Winchester rounds would have hung on. A Marlin or Winchester carbine in those calibers would have all the necessary power and "handiness" required for a scout rifle...and cost less. They can be configured to accommodate any realistic situation. Didn't Cooper himself espouse the value of a 30-30 carbine?

 

[mtgianni]

I tried and have never really cared for the pistol scope forward on a rifle.

I think the best medium gun for a scout rifle is a 18"-20" Enfield with the factory receiver sights. The gun is proven in the mad minute drills, 100 rds @200 yards on an 18" target in 60 seconds. It also gives a quick access to target.

 

[David Sinko]

I tried the Savage version and wasn't really impressed. I settled with the SCAR 17 and ACOG. Ironic, since it seems even more people hate the SCAR than the Scout rifle concept.

 

[SnidelyWhiplash]

I had an early Savage Scout rifle in .308. While I like Savage rifles they tend to have one big flaw...poor designed and executed stocks to save money. The stock on that Scout was light...but it sure transmitted recoil! A well designed stock won't do that to the same degree.

 

[s&wchad]

... Jeff Cooper was a salesman... Beyond the hyperbole and salesmanship, from reading his books and articles, what he really sought was a band of worshipping followers.

I read his articles too. The following photo made me realize he was full of hooey! There no way he carried that Mulie down a mountain like that. He probably had 3 guys help hoist it onto his shoulders, they snapped the photo, then he went to the doctor and got his hernia repaired.

Even if you were strong enough to do that, it seems like a good way to get shot!

 

[wcat94]

I bought the "Timber scout" in 2006 mainly because it was one of the last model 94's made at the Winchester factory. It shoots like a varmint rifle with the Hornady Lever evolution 30-30 rounds.

 

[6string]

Just a gimmick

In 1961, Jim Land (b. 1935) of the USMC, started the first Marine Scout Sniper program. In the process, he was instrumental in the development of modern sniper rifles.
They went from using the old Springfield M1D and modified 1903s, to adopting target rifles built on the Winchester m70 and Remington m700.
Of course, Jim Land didn't work alone. Others did their own work, especially as the results and effectiveness of the program became apparent.
Ultimately, this would lead to the M40 sniper rifle and other developments that are still in use today.

What effect did Cooper's push for his "scout rifle" concept have?
Did any branch of the various military services, in any country, adopt his ideas?
I don't think so.

So, was it just a gimmick to sell rifles, or simply an answer to a question nobody asked?

 

[6string]

I read his articles too. The following photo made me realize he was full of hooey! There no way he carried that Mulie down a mountain like that. He probably had 3 guys help hoist it onto his shoulders, they snapped the photo, then he went to the doctor and got his hernia repaired.

Even if you were strong enough to do that, it seems like a good way to get shot!

Yeah, Cooper had some interesting hunting stories.
My "favorite" was his claim to have acquired a museum permit so he could hunt gorillas with a .44 Magnum.
He said something to the effect of "It takes a real man to stand his ground and flatten a 600 lb charging gorilla."
But, there was scant evidence that he ever did this.
(Probably just as well!)

 

[BarryinIN]

What I'm reading here is a lot of people don't know what a Scout rifle is. They think they know, but they are wrong. Then they judge all "Scout rifles" together.

If it is not light and handy enough to be the first rifle you want to carry along (if not using a .22), its not a Scout.

If it does not have the power and range to take game up to 400-450 pounds at ethical distance, its not a Scout rifle.

If it uses a cartridge you can't buy at any shop that sells ammo, it's not a Scout rifle.

And once more, a forward mounted scope does not by itself make a rifle a Scout rifle.