Trapdoor carbine - 1880

[sigp220.45]

I have a short list of guns I've always wanted but have never owned. A legit 45/70 Trapdoor carbine has been at the top for a while. The few I've found have been either fake or outta my price range (which has varied considerably).

Yesterday I saw this trapdoor. I think it is legit, but will bow to greater expertise. (Note that all guns at Cabelas with hammers are doomed to be cocked for the duration)

The rear sight has the "C" for carbine. The stock doesn't have the tell-tale filled in ramrod hole found on cut down rifle stocks. The saddle bar and ring look appropriately aged. The sliding cover in the buttplate revealed a stuck case remover and nothing else. The bore is worn but not pitted. The serial number of 140775 puts it in 1880 if I read the charts right.

It came from a 100 gun estate purchase. Most of the others were Colt New Services.

When all the whining (me) and stonewalling (them) subsided we were at 1440 bucks. Probably too much, but I don't care.

This being Cabelas they said they knew it was an antique and a background check wasn't required but store policy was to do backgrounds on anything that shoots a cartridge. So, off it went to gun jail. Better pictures to follow.

Now that its too late, do you see anything amiss?

(They also had a 8 3/8" Model 57 for $649 if anyone is interested.)

 

[444 Magnum]

Cartouche? Proof marks? Inspector marks?
1880 looks right and so the cleaning kit compartment would be correct. The carbines 1876 and prior do not have one and had a solid butt plate. The stock appears to be the correct M-1877 stock with the shortened wrist. If the stock proves to be original, I think you did well on it. I'm curious to see the markings when you get it.
I have an early one in the 36K range that hasn't been arsenal refurbished. Hard to find.
I look forward to more info on yours.

 

[weatherby]

Congratulations
There is one at my LGS
Has a really nice bore also an 1880 gun.

 

[mauser9]

Awesome looking piece. Always a fan of these older guns.

 

[jpage]

Gonna shoot it ?

 

[sigp220.45]

Cartouche? Proof marks? Inspector marks?
1880 looks right and so the cleaning kit compartment would be correct. The carbines 1876 and prior do not have one and had a solid butt plate.
I have an early one in the 36K range that hasn't been arsenal refurbished. Hard to find.
I look forward to more info on yours.

The stock has some kind of polyurethane finish, or a million coats of lindseed oil. I didn't see any cartouches, but maybe when I get it home I'll see some.

I only had a few minutes to shoot some pictures at the store.

 

[sigp220.45]

Gonna shoot it ?

Oh hell yeah.

 

[A10]

I have a short list of guns I've always wanted but have never owned. A legit 45/70 Trapdoor carbine has been at the top for a while. The few I've found have been either fake or outta my price range (which has varied considerably).

Yesterday I saw this trapdoor. I think it is legit, but will bow to greater expertise. (Note that all guns at Cabelas with hammers are doomed to be cocked for the duration)

The rear sight has the "C" for carbine. The stock doesn't have the tell-tale filled in ramrod hole found on cut down rifle stocks. The saddle bar and ring look appropriately aged. The sliding cover in the buttplate revealed a stuck case remover and nothing else. The bore is worn but not pitted. The serial number of 140775 puts it in 1880 if I read the charts right.

It came from a 100 gun estate purchase. Most of the others were Colt New Services.

When all the whining (me) and stonewalling (them) subsided we were at 1440 bucks. Probably too much, but I don't care.

This being Cabelas they said they knew it was an antique and a background check wasn't required but store policy was to do backgrounds on anything that shoots a cartridge. So, off it went to gun jail. Better pictures to follow.

Now that its too late, do you see anything amiss?

(They also had a 8 3/8" Model 57 for $649 if anyone is interested.)

Which of the Cowbellows? I've not owned a long barreled one...

 

[sigp220.45]

Which of the Cowbellows? I've not owned a long barreled one...

Lone Tree, CO.

 

[A10]

Gone...not shocked at that price. The hunt goes on!

 

[444 Magnum]

Gonna shoot it ?

Oh hell yeah.

You'll want to do some research on that. The early carbine and rifle load was something like 45-55-405, not the full 45-70-500 and not the loads manufactured today. I think the full 45-70-500 load came about around 1882 for rifles and the carbine load remained at 45-55-405 for reduced recoil. It's been a while since I looked at all that. Others may know differently.

I tried loading a Black Hills cartridge in my 36K range carbine and it wouldn't seat all the way. I wasn't going to shoot it, I just wanted to test the action. I pulled it out and haven't tried since.

There should be plenty of information out there on this topic. Somebody here may know the recipe.

 

[444 Magnum]

Not to change the subject, but interesting grips on that 57.

 

[Muley Gil]

You'll want to do some research on that. The early carbine and rifle load was something like 45-55-405, not the full 45-70-500 and not the loads manufactured today. I think the full 45-70-500 load came about around 1882 for rifles and the carbine load remained at 45-55-405 for reduced recoil. It's been a while since I looked at all that. Others may know differently.

I tried loading a Black Hills cartridge in my 36K range carbine and it wouldn't seat all the way. I wasn't going to shoot it, I just wanted to test the action. I pulled it out and haven't tried since.

There's should be plenty of information out there on this topic. Somebody here may know the recipe.

IIRC, the original rifle load was the 70 grains under a 405 grain bullet. It was replaced by the .45-70 500 grain bullet load. The .45-55-405 load was then developed for the carbines.

 

[cololab]

That looks like a nice carbine that wasn't updated with the Buffington rear sight. Be nice if it doesn't have the 1884 dated breech block that came along when a lot of these were being upgraded with the Buffington sight. Stock proofs, if visible, will be interesting to see.

From what I can see, I think you did just fine with this one.

 

[Wyo]

One thing you'll find when you shoot that is that they're all over standard bore size. I never was able to get decent accuracy in mine with .458" bullets, even when cast soft. Best results came with 55 gr. of 1 1/2 FG Swiss powder and a 405 gr. cast bullet with a hollow base that measured .460". Actual bore diameter on my carbine was .462 and the bore was pristine. The old rifle load of a 500 gr. bullet with a full charge of black will kick the be——- out of you so stick to the carbine loads. Ask me how I know that.

 

[boykinlp]

Not to change the subject, but interesting grips on that 57.

I was thinking the same thing. Kinda looks like some "homemade" finger grooves were carved in a factory target grip to my old eyes.
Larry

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I'm on vacation and my references are at home. I have a 1873 model Carbine. I know the earlier model Carbines have no trap in the but plate. I'm thinking the Carbines have 4 clicks when you cock the hammer, and the rifles have 3. Many shootable "Carbines" are just cut down rifles or assembled from rifle actions. That won't change the fun, but it effects the value. Many original Carbines have a "Field Installed" small "D" ring on the barrel band to aid in a strap or cord for shoulder carrying. These were allowed at the discretion of your CO, they neither add nor detract to the valve, but add to the provenance.

One or two of the serial number lists have mine as 1875 production but another list says that only 5 Carbines were made that year. Big premium for pre-Little Big Horn guns. Infantry rifles have much higher condition standards than Cavalry Carbines due to the Infantry slept with their equipment in buildings when in garrison and in tents in the field; The cavalry troopers usually got to sleep in the weather when on patrol (During "peacetime", the Cavalry lost twice as many men to disease and infantry and started with aprox. 50% fewer men.) so the guns and equipment that have been issued are usually in worse condition.

If loading ammo, use soft lead, 300 or 405 grain bullets and 55 grains by weight (not volume) FFg Black powder or substitute (Pyrotex still has Sulfur, and all the substitute's fouling absorbs humidity and will increase rusting it left uncleaned for any period of time over 12 hours. If FFg isn't available FFFg or Fg will work fine but will have a different point of impact.
When placing the powder in the case, 1) it is best to have a cork or cardboard "Over the powder card. 2)check the depth of the bullet heal when it's seated to be sure there is no air space! If there will be a space, fill with cork or felt wadding, or the modern trick of Cream of Wheat Use a powder scoop for consistency of volume. I use a 36" drop tube when loading 70 grain loads with 500 grain+ bullets. That won't be necessary to fit the powder in the case with 55 grain loads, but the powder should be compressed before determining if you need filler.

One minor problem if you have different loads for different rifles. I have four 45-70 rifles, two BP and two modern lever actions. I recommend putting a black mark on the primer of BP rounds and smokeless rounds have jacketed bullets. Use whatever system you want, but don't confuse the ammo.
Bullets can be lubed or coated, but neither provides enough lube to keep the fouling soft. The common solution is swab the barrel after each shot. The better solution is a lube 3/16" cookie under the bullet. Using Crisco, Lard or any other shortening, slather a big glob on the bullet before inserting the cartridge (Think potato chip and dip!)

Ivan

 

[sigp220.45]

My tiny boss and I headed out to retrieve my carbine from its unjust confinement today.

Its all looks good. The barrel is the right length and diameter, the rear sight has the little C for carbine, the trigger guard is correctly without a sling swivel, the serial number is in the right range for a carbine, and the stock appears to be all as it should.

There may be cartouches awaiting discovery under 144 years of grime and oil. I am going to gently clean the stock to see if they appear.

I'm on the hunt for some cowboy loads, and with a little luck I'll be throwing big chunks of lead this week.

 

[Valmet]

Very cool old Carbine. Always feels great to track one down you've been after awhile. Congrats

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I'm on the hunt for some cowboy loads, and with a little luck I'll be throwing big chunks of lead this week.

If I remember correctly, 8 grains of Trail Boss (hard to find if you don't already have it) a 300 grain RNFP is around 800 fps, and makes good plinking load. (In my guide gun this is like almost zero recoil)

This is low pressure and low recoil, but still a smokeless load!

Ivan