"Pre" Models

[robvious]

The grammar police are everywhere... precision is wonderful, and education is necessary... but mandates don't work well for independent rebels and trying to fight that won't ever work... as long as 2 reasonable people understand what is being discussed, nothing else is required... so get over it...
clip, magazine, pre whatever... just grumble to yourself if you need to feel superior... this bores me to tears.. always has, always will.

 

[rct269]

This discussion always sets my teeth on edge......Ben

It seems like the term "Pre" came into being as a crutch for folks who didn't know the proper name of what they were talking about.

That in turn created folks like me who have to look up almost all model number guns in order to understand what they are talking about.

Does all this have anything to do with "vicious circles"?

Ralph Tremaine

 

[Retired W4]

I actually have several factory letters that identify guns, in part as pre-29, pre-27, pre...well you get my point. Post WW II, non model marked S&W revolvers. When someone calls a magazine a clip, I know what they are talking about. Not too many people get too upset when others use abbreviations and/or acronyms. Communication is a wonderful thing.

 

[GypsmJim]

".45 Long Colt"

It 's wrong, it's stupid, it makes some people cringe.

So what? If the term makes someone understand what you are talking about, what's the difference?

I label all my finished ammo boxes with a Dymo. Gotta conserve the tape, so the less letters, the better. Some boxes say "45 ACP" and others say "45 LC" It conserves tape because "Colt" has 2 more letters.

Right now I'm busy and don't have time to talk more. I'm cleaning my old hand ejector with the partridge sight.

 

[rct269]

The fact of the matter ("fact" being a matter of opinion) is this "Pre" business quickly followed the use of model numbers instead of names. That in turn followed the decision to try making more money by spending less money---as opposed to continuing to strive to produce the best possible product for the price--instead of producing the product at the lowest possible cost----and it was pretty easy to figure out creative people cost more than drones. Somewhere along in here they decided maybe they could have it both ways as far as product goes, and the Performance Center came into being. If you want the very best product for the price, we can still accommodate you. I don't know how that worked out--having more interest in old stuff rather than new stuff.

At any rate, what we see (and fuss about) today started a good long time ago when we drooled and slobbered over the offerings. Since then we have, to one degree or another, stopped being viewed as potential customers, and more as lunatic fringe fuss-budgets---who clearly are of no moment.

At this point it can either get better or get worse---anybody taking bets one way or the other?

Ralph Tremaine

 

[DWalt]

And there were no Model of 1905 or Model of 1902 revolvers made by S&W after around 1914. Although there is no factory "Pre-" prefix, it is a useful convention to identify those revolvers made during the 1947-57 period.

 

[Keith Brown]

I guess all collector speak is simply wrong, and I simply don’t care. Cokes, Lerks grips/stock/handles fishhook hammers pre whatever, I get it. I think most people want basic info first, they may be interested in the more advanced opinions and particulars later, just my opinion.
Now I’m going back to work on next years display “My 1905s from the mid thirty’s” along with the “Best of my Pre Model Smiths”

 

[toddimusnimski]

I'm cleaning my old hand ejector with the partridge sight.

1. Observe the target to mentally establish the distance between the
throwing position and the target area. In observing the target, minimize
exposure time to the enemy (no more than 3 seconds).
2. Grip the hand grenade in the throwing hand.
3. Grasp the pull ring with the index or middle finger of the nonthrowing
hand. Remove the safety pin with a pulling and twisting motion. If the
tactical situation permits, observe the safety pin’s removal.
4. Look at the target and throw the grenade using the overhand method so
that the grenade arcs, landing on or near the target

Thanks for the chuckle Jim

 

[RKmesa]

As a collector of the .357 Magnum (guns in the caliber as well as guns with the name), I regularly find it helpful to use the "Pre-27" designation. It is much quicker to describe a "The .357 Magnum" that when S&W assigned model numbers also became known as the "Model 27" as a 4- or 5-Screw "Pre-27" (even the name police group know what I am talking about). THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT I AM OPPOSED TO USING THE NAME OF THE GUN - I happen to really like the names that S&W called most of their firearms. Another 357 Magnum case in point - it is helpful to describe a pre-war ".357 Magnum" as a "Registered Magnum" if it has "REG" stamped on the frame, and as a "Non-Registered Magnum" if it does not - those names were never used by the factory, but they are very helpful to those of us that collect those wonderful revolvers. Another example in the 357 Magnum world where the pre- designation adds clarity is when applied to the discussion of a Highway Patrolman, where "Pre-28" nomenclature is used to describe a Highway Patrolman that was produced prior to the factory designating model numbers. And you cannot just use the number of screws, as there are 4-screw HPs with Model numbers and 4-screw HPs without Model numbers, and at least one 4-screw Model 28-1.

Words matter and are helpful in expressing our intent. When properly applied, I find the "pre" designation for S&Ws of the 1950s (and late 1940s in some cases) to be very helpful - even though I also know, love, and use the names that S&W assigned to these wonderful firearms.

There you have it - my $0.01.

 

[Frailer]

I can certainly understand—and respect—the pet peeves of others; I have more than my own fair share of them. I also tend to be pedantic by nature, much to the annoyance of my associates.

Every hobby has its own set of terminology that is used to enable precise communication. But some of us (and I count myself among that number on occasion) can get a bit too wound around the axle. The vendor described above is an excellent example of this. These terms can also be used as a means of “gatekeeping” to keep the uninitiated at arm’s length.

For the most part if I know what the other party is trying to say I try not to get too excited about the words they used. It doesn’t bother me in the slightest if someone calls a detachable magazine a “clip,” for example. But I try to be considerate of the sensibilities of others, so I typically use quotation marks whenever I use “pre-model” nomenclature.

 

[Retired W4]

At the age of 76 this thread has opened my eyes to a new word to add to my vocabulary. In the future I will avoid any pedantry.

 

[raljr1]

If you know what a person means when they refer to a firearm by whatever name they choose to use, why the fuss? If we are writing the definitive tome for the collector elite, by all means use the proper terminology. If we are replying to a new member to our accumulator ranks, at least be civil while explaining the correct terminology.

 

[burneyr]

I appreciate the nuance of the naming and numbering, but might offer some perspective?

I'm no spring chicken anymore in my 50s, but I grew up after the model number system had been implemented. I only caught bits and pieces of the model names later. Proud to say I'm pretty well versed now, but it took a few years to get the model numbers down soild - names are an ongoing challenge.

This discussion reminds me of a topic that came up a Corvette Club meeting once. A rather dickish young fellow said "I can tell the age of the driver if he's got chrome rims or not." I retorted "and we can tell your age if they are "rims" instead of "wheels."

No offense to our more "experienced" members as I am continually in awe of how much I learn each time I'm on the board.

 

[Tom K]

I get it but it’s like putting toothpaste back in the tube. There’s no going back. There’s at least 4 other threads with the term in the title alone on the first page on this subforum. No telling how many others have references to the term in the thread. Being technically correct is one thing and educating people is fine but it reminds of the last wannamaker show....

Is that before, or after the Wanenmacher's Tulsa Arms Show?

 

[RKmesa]

I guess all collector speak is simply wrong, and I simply don’t care. Cokes, Lerks grips/stock/handles fishhook hammers pre whatever, I get it. I think most people want basic info first, they may be interested in the more advanced opinions and particulars later, just my opinion.
Now I’m going back to work on next years display “My 1905s from the mid thirty’s” along with the “Best of my Pre Model Smiths”

Keith:

We would love to have a preview of that display (or should I say "a view of that display before you actually make the display") as soon as you are ready.

 

[Engine49guy]

Nonmenclature....

I think the OPs question was answered ad infinitum, lots of interesting explanations and opinions,
I chuckled a bit being that flundertaker has been here since 2013 and almost wondered if he wanted to stir the pot a tiny bit lol.

But the discussion reminded me of a thread years ago, I had acquired a Combat Magnum that IIRC had a serial and ship date that should have put it into the range of Model number guns but it did not have one stamped in the yoke cut, I referred to it as a "Pre 19" at the time, my friend Chris SNW19 pmd me and we got into an interesting discussion on the topic,
In the end he suggested that it might be better to refer to that gun as a "Non model marked Model 19" to which I agreed, btw IIRC the factory designation for that model was KT357 , I could be wrong I'm getting old.

The N Target frame .357 has more history and as such more nuances, while there are no 5 screw Combat Magnums there are 4 and 5 screw N Target frame .357's.
Can't recall if the SW ads and box's all say "The .357 Magnum" or if some say "The S&W .357 Magnum", it suffices to say the NT357 was the only .357 SW offered up until the introduction of the "Highway Patrolman" ( maybe the quotation marks go outside the "the"?).
If "The" is actually part of the name it gets real confusing like who's on first kinda thing,
Man walks into gun store in 1956, I wanna buy the SW .357 Magnum I was looking at last week, which one? The S&W .357 Magnum, ... oh you mean this one with the fancy checkered top? No the other S&W .357 Magnum the 4" one, Do you mean the Combat Magnum? No the cheaper one with the smooth top....oh the Highway Patrolman?
Model numbers made that easier, they also enabled us to ping the guns era, imagine if no Model number system existed you'd be saying I have a Combat Magnum dash 3.
It's confusing enough that SW revived the old name M&P and applies it to their various handguns and rifles in various calibers.

I try not to get hung up on the whole pre model stuff, especially if you add how many screws it has and what year it's from or add the name so we are on the same page.
If someone says "I have a four inch, four screw SW .357 Magnum that shipped around 1956-57", my next question will be ... Which model?

 

[CajunBass]

I grew up spending a lot more time pouring over the Shooters Bible, than I did Kings Jame's version. I was self educated on both model numbers and names.

Then when I got out into the real world and started encountering these gun as real objects, and not just a fuzzy black and white picture, I found out they were made before model numbers were "invented" shall we say. It's a "Pre-27? Got it. It's the same gun as a Model 27, just made before they were given model numbers.

Seemed logical to me.

Then I found out about "dash" numbers.

 

[44wheelman]

never heard anyone refer to my pre39 as a "model 9mm Automatic pistol"...

If they did, I'd have to tell them: No, it's only a semi-automatic.

As for "Long Colt"...then there are those people who will tell you all about the short Colt (Schofield) cartridge that it came to differentiate...blah, blah, blah.

There's effective communication, then there's speaking to engineers.

 

[CajunBass]

never heard anyone refer to my pre39 as a "model 9mm Automatic pistol"...

If they did, I'd have to tell them: No, it's only a semi-automatic.

As for "Long Colt"...then there are those people who will tell you all about the short Colt (Schofield) cartridge that it came to differentiate...blah, blah, blah.

There's effective communication, then there's speaking to engineers.

When I was a youngster, I never heard the term "semi-automatic" anything. I KNEW there was a difference, I read a lot of books and magazines, but a Browning A5 was a "Browning "Automatic". What I know today as a 1911, was a "45 Automatic" or an "Army Colt." And you charged it with a "clip." I knew it was a "magazine" but I sure wasn't going to tell "Mr, Mac" (a WWII Marine who'd fought his way across half the Pacific) that. If he wanted to call it a peanut butter sandwich it was OK with me.

I just nodded and listened to the stories.

 

[wbraswell]

We could do like the Winchester people do, just call all of them pre-57s.