Oddball Triple Lock "half target" on its way
- Thread starter hkcavalier
- Start date
I've seen more than a few with the drift adjustable rear sight, but only one with what I thought was factory---and the beveling on the sides was decidedly different than this one. That said, I'm more than inclined to defer to Hondo's judgement as to what's factory, and what isn't---and who's to say they made all of them with the same beveling-----or any beveling? The only practical requirement is it protrudes from the frame on both sides.
Those which clearly were not factory did not protrude from the sides of the frame, and the one that I deemed to be authentic did (as does this one), but the beveling was much more pronounced.
Bottom Line is as the man said: Get a letter!!
Ralph Tremaine
Those which clearly were not factory did not protrude from the sides of the frame, and the one that I deemed to be authentic did (as does this one), but the beveling was much more pronounced.
Bottom Line is as the man said: Get a letter!!
Ralph Tremaine
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hkcavalier
US Veteran
Absolutely will.
The 98xx serial doesn't match the much lower Bisley range listed in the SCSW, so there's certainly a handful of mysteries to uncover with this one. I've had no luck finding pictures of an all-original Bisley or a factory converted .45 Colt to compare.
The 98xx serial doesn't match the much lower Bisley range listed in the SCSW, so there's certainly a handful of mysteries to uncover with this one. I've had no luck finding pictures of an all-original Bisley or a factory converted .45 Colt to compare.
Search for posts by Jim Fisher. He posted his TL in 45 Colt. Also search for Bisley sight. If you don’t find the posts I’ll send you links next time I’m at my other house.
I don’t think you’ll find a factory 45 Colt conversion, but there are TLs originally factory chambered in 45 Colt.
I don’t think you’ll find a factory 45 Colt conversion, but there are TLs originally factory chambered in 45 Colt.
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hkcavalier
US Veteran
Searching the Jim Fisher thread was VERY enlightening. This very gun was mentioned:
9859 - NO S&W or CAL ROLLMARK, specifically listed on Page 203 of Neal & Jinks as a 44 frame used to build a 455 and shipped to Shapleigh Hardware Jan 1, 1918, one of 23 S&W 1857-1945, by Neal & Jinks, pg 203. Factory Bisley target model with Military Target style rear sight (windage adj only), standard front blade sight. Lanyard swivel drilled thru the butt serial # and restamped on the left side of the grip frame.
And it's the subject of this thread from July. Obviously the owner decided to sell it via an auction house, and I'll be the next owner. I'll still letter it, but a lot of the mysteries have already been sussed out: Please help identify
9859 - NO S&W or CAL ROLLMARK, specifically listed on Page 203 of Neal & Jinks as a 44 frame used to build a 455 and shipped to Shapleigh Hardware Jan 1, 1918, one of 23 S&W 1857-1945, by Neal & Jinks, pg 203. Factory Bisley target model with Military Target style rear sight (windage adj only), standard front blade sight. Lanyard swivel drilled thru the butt serial # and restamped on the left side of the grip frame.
And it's the subject of this thread from July. Obviously the owner decided to sell it via an auction house, and I'll be the next owner. I'll still letter it, but a lot of the mysteries have already been sussed out: Please help identify
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hkcavalier
US Veteran
I found the least expensive Neal & Jinks 1996 reprint available online and bought it. Never had a gun specifically listed or mentioned in a book before. Old hat to some on this thread, I am aware 
Here's another:
4176 NO CTG ROLLMARK, 7 ½” TL 'Military Target' (factory target front sight and Bisley windage-adj-only rear blade) shipped to Robinson 11/21/1910, same configuration and Cal. as a group of 455 MK II TLs, but now 44 spl.
#4176 but slightly different confirmed factory Bisley sight:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/swca-questions-roy-jinks/330169-triplelock-military-target.html
Also Post #219 here: .455 British Svc Revolver Research Thread
Since this gun was shipped almost 2 years later, it could very well have been an extra one of those earlier frames (also called an 'over-run' frame) with the 'military target' sight, i.e., Bisley Match sight, but assembled as a 44.
Roy's letter post 213, does indicate the sights are factory in his letter above. And even states the frame was manufactured in a group of 455 guns, but he didn't say it shipped with them. I think his assumption that yours was a 455 was based on that, but an incorrect assumption since yours is an original 44, or factory converted to 44 2 years later when an order came in for a Bisley sighted 44 Spl.
4176 NO CTG ROLLMARK, 7 ½” TL 'Military Target' (factory target front sight and Bisley windage-adj-only rear blade) shipped to Robinson 11/21/1910, same configuration and Cal. as a group of 455 MK II TLs, but now 44 spl.
#4176 but slightly different confirmed factory Bisley sight:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/swca-questions-roy-jinks/330169-triplelock-military-target.html
Also Post #219 here: .455 British Svc Revolver Research Thread
Since this gun was shipped almost 2 years later, it could very well have been an extra one of those earlier frames (also called an 'over-run' frame) with the 'military target' sight, i.e., Bisley Match sight, but assembled as a 44.
Roy's letter post 213, does indicate the sights are factory in his letter above. And even states the frame was manufactured in a group of 455 guns, but he didn't say it shipped with them. I think his assumption that yours was a 455 was based on that, but an incorrect assumption since yours is an original 44, or factory converted to 44 2 years later when an order came in for a Bisley sighted 44 Spl.
Congratulations, sir. Very cool gun and very cool to have a gun listed in Neal & Jinks.
And although 9859 has had it's cyl modified for 45 ACP and 45 Auto Rim, it will likely still chamber and safely fire the longer 455 MkI cartridge because it's case mouth will headspace properly on the shoulder in the chamber. Thereby the gun retains a degree of originality. Not that 455 MkI is easily available but 45 Colt or Schofield cases can be shortened and loaded for use.
I believe the rear cylinder gap is way to wide for the firing pin to even touch a 455. No mention of a serial number on the rear of the cylinder yet? 45ACP require a moon clips that takes up a lot of space, so shaving the cylinder or recoil shield is required to allow for this caliber. Image is that of a original 455 on top and a shaved cylinder to accept 45 ACP on bottom.
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hkcavalier
US Veteran
Thanks Jim!
Honestly, at this stage, I'm not sure a letter is even necessary. All it's going to tell me is the gun shipped to Shapleigh in Jan 1918 as a .455 with the Bisley sight and lanyard...all things I/we already know. And, fortunately, that book was significantly less expensive than a factory letter...
My next post of note should come sometime in late October or early November as I try out some .45AR and lead bullet .45ACP loads. If a gun is too nice or historically significant to shoot, I probably shouldn't own it. Thanks everyone for the help solving the mystery of the "oddball half-target TL"!
Honestly, at this stage, I'm not sure a letter is even necessary. All it's going to tell me is the gun shipped to Shapleigh in Jan 1918 as a .455 with the Bisley sight and lanyard...all things I/we already know. And, fortunately, that book was significantly less expensive than a factory letter...
My next post of note should come sometime in late October or early November as I try out some .45AR and lead bullet .45ACP loads. If a gun is too nice or historically significant to shoot, I probably shouldn't own it. Thanks everyone for the help solving the mystery of the "oddball half-target TL"!
Please don't make us wait that long for your next post.
Once you have the gun in hand you can answer some questions for certain. Does it chamber .45 ACP with moon clips? Will it still chamber .455?
Would also request that you post a bunch of photos.
Once you have the gun in hand you can answer some questions for certain. Does it chamber .45 ACP with moon clips? Will it still chamber .455?
Would also request that you post a bunch of photos.
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hkcavalier
US Veteran
I can definitely test the .45ACP/moon clip aspect. No .455 on hand and unlikely I can get some before mid October.
I believe the rear cylinder gap is way to wide for the firing pin to even touch a 455. No mention of a serial number on the rear of the cylinder yet? 45ACP require a moon clips that takes up a lot of space, so shaving the cylinder or recoil shield is required to allow for this caliber. Image is that of a original 455 on top and a shaved cylinder to accept 45 ACP on bottom.
Hi Gary,
As you know if 45 ACP is chambered in an ACP cylinder w/o a moon clip, the case mouth will headspace on the shoulder in the chamber and fire because the shoulder will prevent the round from chambering too deep for the firing pin to reach the primer.
The same thing is true for the long 455 MK I cartridge because S&W seems to have chambered their 455 cylinders for the longer MK I cartridge so that all 455 cartridges can be used including 455 MK II, 455 Eley, 455 Wesley, etc.
I would go to Gunbroker and buy one 455 MK I and a MK II cartridge or just an empty case of each one. Won’t cost much at all. Then you can test in your cylinder.
A 45 ACP chambers 1/8" into the chamber of my 455 revolver, preventing it from firing. The revolver pictured below is an excellent 455, #58547, with no evidence of the chambers of ever being touched. Clearly, the 45 ACP rounds will chamber .124" deep and not flush with the rear of the cylinder, preventing them from being fired unless the gun was pointed skyward. The measurement to the chamber reduction is just over 1".
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Gary, I was referring to chambering a 45 ACP in an original factory ACP cylinder, not a converted 455 cylinder. ACP can be fired w/o using moon clips.
Similarly 455 MK I can be fired in a 455 cylinder that’s been shaved to shoot 45 ACP with moon clips.
Similarly 455 MK I can be fired in a 455 cylinder that’s been shaved to shoot 45 ACP with moon clips.
I was not sure. I guess we do not know what the OP's gun started life as yet, but dropping the 45 ACP into the chamber will tell the tale on whether it started out as a 45 ACP or a 455. I understand about the chamber length for a 45 ACP, but cannot see why anyone would shoot the gun without a clip? I would also not want to unload the brass one case at a time, hoping none are stuck.
True we don’t know with absolute certainty which cartridge it was originally chambered for. But highly likely 455 with its Bisley rear sight and existence of the known group of these with Bisley sights.
I’m sure it wasn’t originally chambered in 45 ACP with the serial number missing from the cylinder, the cylinder has been modified. I don’t think anyone would want to shoot ACP without clips either, but it was an option in a pinch.
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