Question for the Break Open Owners...

[3/4Flap]

Always been curious about this...

What is the "life expectancy" of these revolvers? Do you guys shoot them much?

Timing/functioning, etc. Are they serious shooters or does one have to be very stingy in feeding them?

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


Well, what is the life expectancy of a Model 10 Hand Ejector? It
depends on the diet. If one uses the correct ammunition, it is a
long time. Case in point, these top breaks are still around even
after 100 years.

Now, the correct diet can be a contentious topic. Most top breaks
were made in the days of black powder and I subscribe to using
rounds made with this medium. Others will argue that smokeless
rounds are okay. Today's solid head cartridge cases have less in-
ternal volume and cannot hold as much black powder that the
older balloon head cases could so one cannot duplicate the orig-
inal loads exactly but I haven't notice any deterioration using
the BP rounds I have made. But I'm not a prolific user of my
top breaks so I wouldn't be the best test of this. I'll leave it to
others to post their experiences.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[dsf]

These two have been around for a while -





I think so long as one stays with what they were originally designed to shoot they should last nearly as long as any other design that doesn't use a solid frame and fixed cylinder.

I suppose the big difference is the cartridge. 357 and other higher pressure stuff is possible in the swing out cylinders, probably too much for the top breaks.

I stick with standard 45 Colt on this Schofield -

 

[TIMETRIPPER]

When I had a half dozen of the smaller 32 and 38 top breaks, I shot them occasionally with my own reloads and cast bullets. Light charges of Bullseye or more commonly, Trailboss gave very mild loads. Did shoot with some modern smokeless factory loads and even tried black powder once. Both had noticeably harder recoil than my reloads. The black powder loads quickly gummed up the actions of these small frame top breaks. After ten shots they became difficult to cycle. Perhaps the larger frame revolvers don't have this issue but IDK.
I had SA, DA, and lemmon squeezers in both 32 and 32 S&W and enjoyed learning about them. Cast bullets for them using old Ideal reloading tools which was was a very interesting challenge. However, concerns for possible parts breakage and the lack of spares lead me to stop shooting them. I sold them all off but am always on the lookout for a good buy if one pops up.

John

 

[3/4Flap]

When I had a half dozen of the smaller 32 and 38 top breaks, I shot them occasionally with my own reloads and cast bullets.....

John

Thanks.
That's very interesting experience.
My gunsmith doesn't own them but has a pretty high regard for the Smith and Wesson .32's and .38 top-breaks he's seen and worked on over the years. And a low opinion of the Iver Johnsons and H&R's.
Your point about black powder is also very interesting. No surprise those .32's and .38's might gum up after not too many shots. Nature of the beast w/ BP and for their purpose generally not too much of a drawback.

 

[Books]

I have used my original top-breaks is several Western Action Shooting (WAS) matches. I have shot .32s, .38s & a .44. I hand load with a black powder substitute. I prefer 3f APP. I have experienced no ill effects. (But have not shot 1000s of rounds; 100s not 1000s)

I am not a ballistician or a metallurgist. It is my opinion that prolonged use of smokeless powder in pistols designed for black powder slowly stretches the parts until they will no longer lock up properly.

Books

 

[BMur]

Range memories

My brother and I use to go to the range every Friday, religiously. I would always bring one of my antique pistols and put no less than 50 black powder or substitute that I hand loaded through the gun. One was a Smith & Wesson Topbreak DA 38 3rd. It shot great for many years but I am very anal with maintaining my guns. They stay lubed and clean.
I don't see how we can compare a Topbreak to an M&P though. That's like a model A leaf spring buggy to an independent suspension air conditioned Cadillac.

Modern Smith & Wessons are a true pleasure to shoot. Trigger pull is heavenly but the old Topbreak with white powder puff is something every enthusiast must experience. Very historical and satisfying.

And every Friday when I shot the Smith & Wesson top break with black powder or substitute it never failed, someone would walk over and ask " What are you shooting"?? Can I try it!??

Murph

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

I don't see how we can compare a Topbreak to an M&P though. That's like a model A leaf spring buggy to an independent suspension air conditioned Cadillac.


Murph

It's funny you would use that comparison. My first car was a 1929
Tudor Model A. Comparing the spring on a Model A to a "Buggy"
spring is laughable. And comparing the suspension of a Model
A to a Cadillac made 80+ years later is just Hyperbole. Plus, the
Model A was a Hell of a good car. I remember a 1969 Ford Pinto
add that tried to compare the Model A to the Pinto stating that of
the 4 million plus Model A's built, one quarter of them were still
registered (and implying the Pinto was another reliable long lived
Ford vehicle).

But the point was that any revolver that is abused by using rounds
that are too powerful for it is going to shoot loose. I cannot tell
you how many M&P's I've seen that were just old "rattle traps."
Plus, the Model K was the immediate successor of the Top Break
era and not a 80 year gap between them. (I probably should have
said M&P instead of Model 10, so that is on me).


Cheers!
Webb

 

[Kinman]

Simply put, use them as they were designed to be used. For the most part they were designed for personal safety in the age of black powder. I am sure there were folks that used them in the target shooting sports and the only difference in construction may be the addition of a rudimentary adjustable rear sight. As with anything around 100 years old there is always the possibility of structural weakness of parts which with these old things is getting more and more difficult to obtain. I shoot mine sparingly, always use black powder and clean afterwards, no problems. They are very enjoyable to use at the range if you don't mind curious people when the smoke clears.

 

[rct269]

Let me speak to just one of the S&W top breaks that found their way into my collection of S&W target guns. It's a NM #3 Target----one of those chambered only for 32-44 or 38-44 S&W cartridges----says so in ALL the books. These guns were S&W's first target guns-----which is to say they came with target sights (only)--------and those loads were pip-squeak target loads.

This one came to live here in 2015. It was made and shipped in 1902. The letter notes "It appears to have been a special order for one unit-------."

It was chambered for the "38 WINCHESTER CTG"------as stamped on the barrel. Now these are black powder guns, and I don't have the first clue as to the ballistics of a black powder 38-40 load, but the tamest of today's factory loads spits out a 180 grain bullet at 1160 fps-----which is right up there in rompin', stompin' territory-----and I suspect yesteryear's black powder load provided essentially the same performance----all of which tells me they were meant to be "serious shooters", as you say.

The only drawback, or weakness inherent in S&W top-breaks is the material they were made with----which was the best available at the time---and more than adequate for the task at hand---and you don't have to be the least bit "stingy in feeding them", you just have to feed them the correct food----pretty much the same concerns you have for your babies, your dogs and your cats----and any other critters you favor.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[bcowern]

What is the proper clean-up procedure after shooting black powder in these revolvers?

Does shooting black powder in these revolvers affect the finish?

Regards

 

[Moon Guns]

They should be cleaned right after shooting if using Goex etc. true Black Powder with soap & water or Ballistol. I use American Pioneer Powder (APP) 2F (cartridge) & 3F (cap&ball) a BP substitute which does not require immediate cleaning and is easily cleaned with baby wipes or soap & water. My .44 & .45 S&W (Cowboy Action) load is 15gr 2f, fill balance on cartridge 1/8" shy of the top with Red Hill Tapioca (small pearl) top with a 200gr lead RNF for a 10% compression load required with APP. All BP loads were 95% full case, so if you download you must use filler like Tapicoa, Grits etc. to fill the case.

 

[Jim Watson]

I have only shot single shot rifles with black powder.
I have used Windex with Vinegar and diluted M-Pro 7 solvent to brush and patch the barrel and to wipe off everything I can reach. Then oil with smelly Balistol.

Revolvers are more complicated with more moving parts and nooks and crannies but the fake powders are easier to clean... except maybe Pyrodex.

 

[BMur]

Finish

Yes!

Shooting black powder will impact original factory antique finish negatively. I only shoot antique "BROWN" no finish revolvers after personal experience with both nickel and blued finish loss after shooting. Which translates to value loss.

What I always do is soak black powder pistols at the range after extensive shooting in spray penetrant and wrap them until you are able to thoroughly clean them. This will prevent the thick corrosive build up that takes place after shooting if neglected for a relatively short time. That thick layer can also permanently stain nickel and dull blued finish.

Murph

 

[ISCS Yoda]

I don't shoot mine at all.

 

[rct269]

What is the proper clean-up procedure after shooting black powder in these revolvers?

Does shooting black powder in these revolvers affect the finish?

Regards

Hoppes has (or perhaps HAD, because it's been a loooooooooong time ago) a black powder solvent---same as #9, only different). I used that. I didn't use it much, because I didn't shoot black powder loads much-----more as experimentation than anything else. As to any effect on finish, I'm sure there would be, but I used their black powder solvent the same as I would #9------cleaned the gun inside AND outside.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[desi2358]

Hoppes did offer a black powder solvent but it really isn't needed. Plain old soap and water will clean up black powder residue quite effectively. I usually clean with just plain water to flush out barrel & chambers then use water with a small amount of soap for more detailed scrubbing (and it really doesn't take much). Dry the barrel & chambers, wipe down all exterior surfaces and lightly oil.

I've been shooting black powder firearms since the early 70's and so long as I follow this basic procedure I've never had any rust problems or noticeable finish deterioration. I do stick to actual black powder (mainly Swiss brand now) not a fan of the various substitute powders. Though if that's all you can find they work, just require extra attention to getting everything clean, their residue seems harder to remove.

 

[glowe]

. . . Most top breaks
were made in the days of black powder and I subscribe to using
rounds made with this medium. Others will argue that smokeless rounds are okay . . .

Cheers!
Webb

Just a quick mention of the fact that there are smokeless powder reloading recipes that are more than OK. One reason is that they are actually lower pressure rounds than black powder. How anyone can complain about shooting ammunition that is lower than original design pressures is beyond me, but they continue to rail against factual data. Commercial 32 S&W and 38 S&W ammunition are still available and data shows that they are loaded to 10% to 25% lower pressures than original black powder. I do currently have about 10 pounds of black powder on hand and shoot it all the time, either for effect of the white smoke or wanting to be period correct when shooting single shot rifles, flintlocks, and percussion muskets and rifles, which are relatively easy to clean. There are also many muzzleloading semi-smokeless powders out there, but they still cannot be left without cleaning soon in humid environments.

Revolvers are very time consuming process that involves something that I do not like to use, water. It gets into the hinges, springs, latch, and sometimes in the mechanism itself. I have never had a problem keeping my top-breaks in great condition, but it takes a lot of time compared to smokeless. I also shoot my 32 RImfires from time to time and the only ammo made in the last 40 years was loaded with, you guessed it, smokeless powder!! No problems, no damage, no explosions, no nothing but reliably sending a bullet downrange to the target and quick easy cleanup.

Biggest risk is that parts can break after 100 years of use, and that can be a major problem. Hardly anyone makes parts for these old tip-ups and top-breaks, so when a spring or internal part breaks, you just about have to find a machinist or gunsmith to manufacture a new part. Sometimes, depending on the part, it can cost more than the gun is worth.

 

[Kinman]

What is the proper clean-up procedure after shooting black powder in these revolvers?

Does shooting black powder in these revolvers affect the finish?

Regards

I shoot black powder firearms on the average of three days a week, competitively the 2nd Sunday of each month. As far as black powder damaging the finish that all depends on the method of cleaning. The best cleaner of black powder residue is hot soapy water, with that said the complications begin. On firearms that I have a high degree of interest in I clean them immediately after shooting, that would be in regard to my 1st Model D.A. and a few other late model Colt percussion revolvers and one or two flintlock pieces I have that are very nice. With my daily shooter, there is no visible loss of finish except where it has been worn off from use of my hands. I have a cleaning solution made of 64oz distilled water, 3oz water soluble mineral oil and 4oz of Dawn liquid dish soap. I scrub the barrel with a wet patch, wipe down the exterior of the places that have residue, dry with a clean cloth and then liberally dose with Ballistol, down the barrel and exterior including the wood. If I am doing a deep cleaning I get down into the breech with a breech scraper and patch, scrub the barrel with a wire brush and Hoppes #9, wipe with clean patch, use special pipe cleaners that have an abrasive quality to clean out the touchhole area where the nipple resides, blow everything out with compressed air and wipe down with Balllistol. I dump percussion revolver cylinders with nipples removed into my sonic cleaner with simple green and water, rinse with hot water, pipe cleaners where needed, brushed out cylinders, barrel all that stuff and when I am satisfied oil everything and park it. It is time consuming but its all part of the game and if you don't like cleaning firearms stay well clear of black powder. With SAA Colts and interiors of Smith and Wesson revolvers its pretty simple, smear a good amount of something on the order of STOS or even vaseline into the areas where residue may get, in most cases it is minimal for residue to get inside the lock mechansim on anything black powder, its mainly the cylinder and barrel, top strap, forcing cone and exterior of receiver. I have learned to try anything very strong on an area that will not be seen before applying it to the main body. Brake Cleaner is an excellent cleaner and I use it liberally on most of my semi autos as a final rinse before protective finish is applied. The thing to remember about black powder is it does not mix well with anything petroleum based, petroleum based products are bad juju and have no business around black powder. The only exception is mineral oil and water soluble mineral oil is the best. For the lock mechanisms of my nice stuff I use my precious supply of real Sperm Whale oil, a drop is all that is required in the entire lock, I am fond of Ballistol and I like the smell, a few of my friends rely on Breakfree. With black powder use your main enemy is moisture, together with fouling they can be a problem. If I am not going to be using a rifle in a day or two I give it a cursory cleaning.
A word on synthetic or black powder substitute...the clock starts ticking on that stuff the minute you open the can, it looses its effectiveness drastically over time. Black powder in a cool dry environment is good forever. The worst case of corrosion I have ever seen on a black powder firearm was on a Uberti copy of the venerable 1858 Remington Army. He was involved with cowboy action shooting and got tired of loading so he bought three cylinders. I picked it up from him cheap and thought it might be fun to mess around with, much more usable friendly than a Colt which requires disassembly to remove the cylinder, pull a pin and exchange cylinders is easy peasy on a Remington. I quickly found out which cylinder he used the most because I could not get three of the nipples out with a proper wrench, I got one of the three out finally and literally had to drill out the last two and re-tap...fortunately remembering that they are not a straight shot there is a slight angle. Pyrodex residue is more complicated and more corrosive than black powder. Black powder is simply charcoal, suphur and salt petre or nitre, soap and water is a natural.