Model 41 - Is It Normal to Be Very Ammo Fussy?

soak, clean and brush the chamber very well w a bronze brush, Wolff has a variety of recoil springs. I think I run 7lbs for standard velocity, 7.5 or 8 for minimag, can remember now, get springs 6.5 - 8 and try them.

One of the very best guns Smith ever built (in the old days, not now)
 
Stop with the home gunsmithing. The Model 41 is not known to be ammo sensitive in the case of not firing ammo. Clearly, better ammo will give better accuracy, but the M41 will (or should) fire everything you put in it. If it does not fire good quality ammo, have it repaired by a gunsmith who knows the Model 41.
 
IMHO the S&W M41 is one of the very few S&W's that usually does not need Gun Smithing! Changing the springs out to lighter versions can unnecessarily wear your gun faster.

NOTE: Anyone installing a Wolff recoil spring in a M41 MUST REALIZE that it is a DIRECTIONAL spring and MUST only be installed with the CLOSED side toward the muzzle (opposite of a 1911 recoil spring). Installing it backwards WILL cause the gun to lock up bad and will damage the gun!! I gave up years ago trying to get Wolff Spring to fix this issue by finishing both ends like the Factory version.

If you are going to use a Wolff recoil spring with one opened end, PLEASE mark it with pain so you know to install only the closed end towards the muzzle. AFAIK, Wolff still makes them this way so beware!
 
OK, I am confused. The OP has a M41 that works "flawlessly" with CCI SV ammo. He should by all rights be very happy. CCI SV is relatively cheap ammo by anyone's standards so I don't understand what the problem is. CCI SV is all I run in my PC M41 and it is very accurate on the short line. So he starts experimenting with other cheaper ammo and has problems. What would he expect? It's cheaper ammunition for Pete's Sake! Stay with what you know works "flawlessly" and call it a day!! He's looking for a solution to a non-existent problem....

Re the spring issue. Yes the springs should be replaced after a given period of time and/or use. We replaced hammer and recoil springs in our duty pistols roughly every 2,000 rounds or 2-3 years. Not surprisingly doing so sometimes created problems with individual pistols that had to be addressed on an individual basis, but spring replacement is always a good idea. So is replacing the extractors on M-41 pistols but that is another story for another time.

Rick H.
 
OK, I am confused. The OP has a M41 that works "flawlessly" with CCI SV ammo. He should by all rights be very happy. CCI SV is relatively cheap ammo by anyone's standards so I don't understand what the problem is. CCI SV is all I run in my PC M41 and it is very accurate on the short line. So he starts experimenting with other cheaper ammo and has problems. What would he expect? It's cheaper ammunition for Pete's Sake! Stay with what you know works "flawlessly" and call it a day!! He's looking for a solution to a non-existent problem....

Re the spring issue. Yes the springs should be replaced after a given period of time and/or use. We replaced hammer and recoil springs in our duty pistols roughly every 2,000 rounds or 2-3 years. Not surprisingly doing so sometimes created problems with individual pistols that had to be addressed on an individual basis, but spring replacement is always a good idea. So is replacing the extractors on M-41 pistols but that is another story for another time.

Rick H.
I asked the question since I own and have shot a good share of firearms over the years. The M41 only being able to use one brand of ammo in order to function is a first for me when it comes to a quality firearm. Hence my question.

Some guys say it will shoot anything, and other say just use CCI. I have heard that HV ammo can potentially damage the pistol. And other say that is a bunch of hogwash. I already have the replacement spring and extractor, and replacement pin. And a new S&W magazine on the way. I will see if that makes any difference. And I did order a bunch of CCI SV as well.
 
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My dad recently gave me a S&W Model 41 from 1972. It is in great condition, and he gave me both barrel lengths as well. I currently have the 5 inch installed.

It could not be more accurate, but I am not sure if it is just super ammo particular or if I need to replace the extractor and spring. I have tried several brands of ammo, but it has problems ejecting the casings. Some brands are more problematic than others. The only ammo that functions flawlessly is CCI.

My dad said to try Remington Golden Bullets since those always seem to work for him. So far, I have tried bulk ammo by Aguila, Winchester, Federal Champion and Federal Automatch. I tried CCI at the range today and not a single problem. Is this normal for you M41 owners out there?

I have a 7" model made in 1985 and it has to be clean to run well. I don't have failures to feed, just failures to extract (which cause a failure to feed after it). The case tends to stovepipe out the right side, and what I feel is happening is the extractor gets it far enough out of the chamber for the ejector to start it to the right, then loses grip on the case. If the gun is clean when I start shooting I can go 100 rounds or more before another FTE, but if I don't clean it when I get home, next time out it starts FTE'ing again. I use Federal std velocity ammo .
 
I have a 7" model made in 1985 and it has to be clean to run well. I don't have failures to feed, just failures to extract (which cause a failure to feed after it). The case tends to stovepipe out the right side, and what I feel is happening is the extractor gets it far enough out of the chamber for the ejector to start it to the right, then loses grip on the case. If the gun is clean when I start shooting I can go 100 rounds or more before another FTE, but if I don't clean it when I get home, next time out it starts FTE'ing again. I use Federal std velocity ammo .

The best upgrade you can make on your M41 is to replace the original extractor with a Volquartsen extractor. There are very few instances I am aware of where it not fix extraction problems related to poor performance the original stamped out extractor. The last time I bought some from Volquartsen they were somewhere in the low $20 dollar range. The process requires only a few simple tools to install and should not take more than 20 minutes. IMHO it is a very worthwhile upgrade for a M41.
 
Some guys say it will shoot anything, and other say just use heard that HV ammo can potentially damage the pistol. And other say that is a bunch of hogwash.

Let me tell you, there are shooters out there with close to a hundred thousand rounds, some probably close to 250,000 rounds through their M41's.

As an example of the number of rounds some shoot, one shooter, who is still active this year, was an Olympic shooter in the early 1960's. I took pictures of his pistol box, and his shooting cards. He has been shooting forever. He shot enough rounds through his High Standard 22lr that he cracked the lower lug that holds the barrel to the frame. That is not a common failure mode.

I talked to a gunsmith at Clark Guns who has worked on over 200 M41's, and says he has gotten M41's working that the S&W Custom/Customer Service could not. He has handled M41's where the slide was "bent like a banana"! . I assume it was bent by the number of rounds that were fired in it. If you look at the slide, case thrust will be delivered to the top of the slide, and surely that is an asymmetric loading which could in time, give a bend to the slide.

The gunsmith did say that older M41's are made of softer steels than modern M41's. His overall assessment of new M41's is that they are made better, built out of better steels, but are not necessarily more accurate or reliable than the old ones. I do believe the better built (CNC machining) and better steels. Steel technology today is better than 1950's, 1960's, 1970's.

I did call S&W and they stated that the M41 will shoot HV without a problem.

I do think shooters firing cases of ammunition a year, over decades, are going to see things that lower volume shooters won't. And I believe that it probably is a good idea, for longevity, to shoot SV in older M41's.
 
IThe case tends to stovepipe out the right side, and what I feel is happening is the extractor gets it far enough out of the chamber for the ejector to start it to the right, then loses grip on the case.


Try wiping the wax off your ammunition, and then going over the cases with an oily rag. Clark is showing that oiling ammunition does improve function.

Easy way to improve the 22 caliber reliability from Clark Custom Guns and Shootout Lane's Jess Clark

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f79IOQKm958[/ame]

The M41 is a blowback pistol. The case is popped out of the chamber by residual barrel pressure. To understand how this works, look at the blowback section of Volume IV, Design Analysis of Automatic Firing Mechanism, by LTC George Chinn.

This was available at hyperwar. The link is not working now, maybe later.

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/MG/

An extractor in a blowback mechanism basically pushes the case against the breechface on extraction. So, it is possible that your extractor spring is weak.

I would also replace the recoil spring and the mainspring. Both of these are very important in the timing of an autopistol.

Example, I have an early 60's Ruger MK1. More I shot it, the more stove pipes, due to timing and weak ignition. I replaced the recoil spring and the mainspring housing with new parts, and function immediately improved. Ignition was more powerful. With a full strength mainspring unlock is happening when it should. I do believe the mainspring is more important for unlock timing than the recoil spring. Take a look at the mechanical disadvantage a hammer provides on a slide.

Now I can't prove this without a slow mo camera, but I believe a combination of weak recoil spring, weak mainspring, the slide is overaccelerated, it goes back too soon, and it rebounds too soon. The case is knocked off the breech face but before it fully ejects, it is trapped by the forward movement of the slide.

And, it won't hurt to replace the old extractor spring with a new one.
 
Try wiping the wax off your ammunition, and then going over the cases with an oily rag. Clark is showing that oiling ammunition does improve function.

I have 41,s and hi standards haven't been shooting 22 for years, but both brands functioned best with standard CCIs. I always refreshed springs and cleaned the guns regularly. I understood the early 41s and Hi Standards should not be fed higher pressure ammo. In fact I was offered a steel vent ribbed Hi Standard that was very desirable except the bolt face and barrel were badly deformed from either a lot of shooting or high pressure ammo.

One trick the competitive shooters recommended was putting drops of oil on the ammo. All this would do is create more rear ward thrust like using higher pressure ammo. Maybe theses competitors were more concerned with their score than unnecessary wear and tear on the guns?
 
If it ever came to the point (with any firearm that could not make work correctly) where I had to wipe the wax coating off the bullets and oil them, I would not own that particular gun. No way I'd be doing that and it just should not have to be that way.

Like I stated above, for true extraction issues, the Volquartsen extractor works more times than not and is easy enough and affordable enough to install. The factory extractor is not the best IMHO.

Changing springs on a brand new gun right out of the factory should not be required at all. While I have no proof that S&W gears the M41 for use with CCI 40 grain SV ammo, I do know that very very few M41's don't like that particular round and that seems to be the go-to round for this pistol. Between the extractor and the ammo, most M41's do work well. Anyone that needs more than that should be returned for repair. The M41 is not a cheap entry level gun should be shipped in perfectly working order so the customer does not have to first fiddle with it to work properly. It irks me that such an accurate target pistol is not thoroughly tested and tweaked BEFORE it ever gets put into the box.

One other thing worth mentioning is that older model M41's usually do not like the tiny thin modern magazines. I have tried a bunch of brand new ones and could never get a single one to work reliably! S&W themselves fully recognizes this issue! If you have an older M41 and are in need of additional magazines I would highly suggest putting a pencil in your mouth, grit your teeth and pay the high price for a vintage metal follower type magazine in good condition - off of eBay or a LGS. While they are no longer cheap, you will get a sturdy, original high quality magazine that always works and should last a lifetime.
 
My experience with 41's is CCI is their preference, even over other expensive 22's

I fully agree with you!

Even the super expensive Eley ammo which is considered the best by some will not work at all in my M41. I have shot it out of other firearms as well and have never found it worthy of the reputation I had heard about.

I do not own any stock in CCI, Federal or American Eagle but I do view them as about the best in the business.

CCI for 22 target shooting

Federal HST 124 grain SV in 9mm for SD

American Eagle 230 grain FMJ has the highest Ball ammo velocity of any mainstream Factory load I know of. It is also utterly reliable and accurate in all my 1911's. Before I reloaded that was the load of choice for me and have fired cases and cases of them. In general, AE is very very hogh quality ammo at reasonable prices! When training someone new to firearms I usually recommend they buy a case or two of AE ammo in their caliber. Target Sports (online seller) usually sells it for really reasonable prices (the lowest prices I know of) and ships cases for free.
 
One trick the competitive shooters recommended was putting drops of oil on the ammo. All this would do is create more rear ward thrust like using higher pressure ammo. Maybe theses competitors were more concerned with their score than unnecessary wear and tear on the guns?

If you are oiling ammo so it produces more back pressure why not shoot high velocity ammo? Same effect, no added steps.

I can see where this would be useful for competitive shooters that have a 41 that is most accurate high grade standard velocity ammo. But for someone like me that is not a competitive shooter and has a 41 that is not reliable with SV ammo but is reliable with quality (CCI) HV ammo shooting high velocity ammo is a better choice.

Even with inexpensive CCI Blazer 40 grain round nose lead ammo my 41 is very accurate. And with that ammo it is also very reliable. Model 41s have earned their reputation for being finicky about ammo, even by 22 LR standards. If replacing the factory recoil spring and keeping the gun clean isn't enough to make a 41 reliable with SV ammo its best to quit trying to make it and enjoy shooting it with HV ammo.

I feel the same way about reduced power main springs. If you are shooting SV ammo to reduce peening using a reduced power spring will increase peening just like shooting HV ammo with the factory spring will.
 
One trick the competitive shooters recommended was putting drops of oil on the ammo. All this would do is create more rear ward thrust like using higher pressure ammo. Maybe theses competitors were more concerned with their score than unnecessary wear and tear on the guns?

"Un necessary wear and tear"?

Let’s start with why 22lr cases have wax lubricants, grease lubricants, on the cases.

4tB9RN1.jpeg



The Machine Gun, Vol IV

HyperWar: The Machine Gun

Chapter 1 Blowback Operation

Page 7

THE PRIMARY DIFFICULTIES IN BLOWBACK OPERATION ARE THE DIRECT RESULT OF EXCESSIVE CARTRIDGE CASE MOVEMENT DURING THE PERIOD OF EXTREMELY HIGH CHAMBER PRESSURE AND THESE DIFFICULTIES ARE AGGRAVATED BY INADEQUATE CASE LUBRICATION.

(all caps and bold by author)

Pg 11 Analysis of Plain Blowback:

In the preceding description of blowback operation, it was pointed out that the most critical factor affecting the design of a gun employing this system is the movement of the cartridge case during the action of the powder gas pressure….

1. If no lubrication is provided, the high pressures generated in the early part of the explosion will cause the cartridge case to seize in the chamber. Therefore, separation of the case will result unless the movement of the bolt is limited so that the allowable elongation of the case material is not exceeded while the case is stuck…..

2. Even if chamber seizure can be avoided by means of adequate lubrication, the cartridge case can not be permitted to move out of the chamber so far that its thin walls do not receive any radial support while the residual pressure is still fairly high…..


There is a whole chapter on blowback action operation, and I can’t summarize it in one word, one paragraph, and few people are curious enough to read the whole chapter. But the thing is, blowbacks use lubrication, they have to use lubrication, the 22lr is lubricated with wax or grease, and blowback firearms (22lr and other) are designed to operate to withstand the bolt thrust of a lubricated cartridge (and the assumption is, zero reduction of bolt thrust by friction) at a maximum pressure. It is safe to assume that SAAMI max pressures are safe in any commercial action in the US. Military weapons are another thing. The US Military regularly runs over pressure rounds on legacy weapons, and the lifetime of those weapons are accordingly reduced.

Incidentally, there is no increase in combustion pressures from lubrication

q2SW5tL.jpeg


Slathing oil over a waxed case is not going increase pressures.

Wax is a lubricant by virtue of the fact it undergoes a phase change under the pressures and temperatures of combustion. Under high pressure, wax goes from a solid, to a liquid. Or rather, should go. I think old wax dries out and does not do a good job of becoming a liquid at 22lr pressures. That may be a reason by expensive pistol match ammunition uses a “vegetable based” lubricant. Eley would not tell me what the vegetable based lubricant was, just that was the lube used on their pistol match 22lr. I can say, my rifle match 22lr is greasy as all get out, and that grease goes from the bullet tip, all the way down to the rim. It must make a difference on target as the dry lube Eley Edge never shot as well as rifle Black box or Red box, which are very greasy

Wax lubricants don’t work well in cold weather. My gun club used to hold a combined rifle and pistol match in the winter. I always had function problems with my Ruger MKII, and others shooting semi auto 22lr's always had alibis. I could run a couple of five round magazines fine, but eventually, the pistol would gum up. What was happening was that vaporized wax lubricant (either bullet or case) would puff out of the barrel when the case ejected, Then it would condense into the mechanism, and somewhere around 10 to 30 rounds, the cold caused the wax to harden, and the mechanism would gum up, causing failures to feed, or failures to eject.

Maybe theses competitors were more concerned with their score than unnecessary wear and tear on the guns?

As a rule, to someone who wants to win in a competitive sport where accurate shooting determines the winner, and unreliable function will ruin a score, there are at least three strong rules.

An inaccurate firearm has zero value.

An unreliable weapon has zero value

A firearm is a disposable item in the pursuit of excellence.
 
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For what it is worth, model 41's seem to come in 2 flavors, either very easy going and will shoot any ammo and those that if you look at them cross eyed they have a fit and will only shoot one type of ammo. My early 70s shoots anything I have tried but I stick to CCI SV, for off hand shooting it is ore than accurate enough. I would change the spring, add a new extractor and scrub the **** out of the chamber and if that does not help I would have someone who knows these guns give it a going over.
 
When I get a 41 the first ammo fired is CCI ST-V. If this isn’t cycling action run a mag of Hi-V through it. If it works other than spring if a gun has layed for years it may be dry. It’s got time to strip and deep clean. Lightly lubricate, lightly. Then try the ST-V again. If it still doesn’t cycle it’s time to do spring job.
 
I never considered the blow back function, interesting


"Un necessary wear and tear"?

Let’s start with why 22lr cases have wax lubricants, grease lubricants, on the cases.

4tB9RN1.jpeg



The Machine Gun, Vol IV

HyperWar: The Machine Gun

Chapter 1 Blowback Operation

Page 7

THE PRIMARY DIFFICULTIES IN BLOWBACK OPERATION ARE THE DIRECT RESULT OF EXCESSIVE CARTRIDGE CASE MOVEMENT DURING THE PERIOD OF EXTREMELY HIGH CHAMBER PRESSURE AND THESE DIFFICULTIES ARE AGGRAVATED BY INADEQUATE CASE LUBRICATION.

(all caps and bold by author)

Pg 11 Analysis of Plain Blowback:

In the preceding description of blowback operation, it was pointed out that the most critical factor affecting the design of a gun employing this system is the movement of the cartridge case during the action of the powder gas pressure….

1. If no lubrication is provided, the high pressures generated in the early part of the explosion will cause the cartridge case to seize in the chamber. Therefore, separation of the case will result unless the movement of the bolt is limited so that the allowable elongation of the case material is not exceeded while the case is stuck…..

2. Even if chamber seizure can be avoided by means of adequate lubrication, the cartridge case can not be permitted to move out of the chamber so far that its thin walls do not receive any radial support while the residual pressure is still fairly high…..


There is a whole chapter on blowback action operation, and I can’t summarize it in one word, one paragraph, and few people are curious enough to read the whole chapter. But the thing is, blowbacks use lubrication, they have to use lubrication, the 22lr is lubricated with wax or grease, and blowback firearms (22lr and other) are designed to operate to withstand the bolt thrust of a lubricated cartridge (and the assumption is, zero reduction of bolt thrust by friction) at a maximum pressure. It is safe to assume that SAAMI max pressures are safe in any commercial action in the US. Military weapons are another thing. The US Military regularly runs over pressure rounds on legacy weapons, and the lifetime of those weapons are accordingly reduced.

Incidentally, there is no increase in combustion pressures from lubrication

q2SW5tL.jpeg


Slathing oil over a waxed case is not going increase pressures.

Wax is a lubricant by virtue of the fact it undergoes a phase change under the pressures and temperatures of combustion. Under high pressure, wax goes from a solid, to a liquid. Or rather, should go. I think old wax dries out and does not do a good job of becoming a liquid at 22lr pressures. That may be a reason by expensive pistol match ammunition uses a “vegetable based” lubricant. Eley would not tell me what the vegetable based lubricant was, just that was the lube used on their pistol match 22lr. I can say, my rifle match 22lr is greasy as all get out, and that grease goes from the bullet tip, all the way down to the rim. It must make a difference on target as the dry lube Eley Edge never shot as well as rifle Black box or Red box, which are very greasy

Wax lubricants don’t work well in cold weather. My gun club used to hold a combined rifle and pistol match in the winter. I always had function problems with my Ruger MKII, and others shooting semi auto 22lr's always had alibis. I could run a couple of five round magazines fine, but eventually, the pistol would gum up. What was happening was that vaporized wax lubricant (either bullet or case) would puff out of the barrel when the case ejected, Then it would condense into the mechanism, and somewhere around 10 to 30 rounds, the cold caused the wax to harden, and the mechanism would gum up, causing failures to feed, or failures to eject.



As a rule, to someone who wants to win in a competitive sport where accurate shooting determines the winner, and unreliable function will ruin a score, there are at least three strong rules.

An inaccurate firearm has zero value.

An unreliable weapon has zero value

A firearm is a disposable item in the pursuit of excellence.
 
I'm no sage...

As a longtime M41 owner, I've had all the problems, and I've applied all the solutions you can read about above, and found that some ammo just shoots better than others in either barrel of my M41. I recently ran out of CCI Std Vel which has shot flawlessly for the past two or more years that I've had stock, and changed over to Federal Automatch, also a Std Vel ammo as far as I can find out. With no other changes in cleaning routine, equipment, or range conditions I'm now having issues with failures to extract. I've noticed the Automatch (which has been purchased from aged-out-shooters and during the "ammunition drought") has some tarnish on the brass, I intend to try wiping some beeswax on the brass to see if it will reduce the FTEs, since I have about 10K of the Automatch. Yes, a pain, but I'm retired and can do it while I watch reruns of Rawhide.
Just my 2 cents.
 
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