SIG ordered to pay 11 million for AD

[Onomea]

...There’s a military case, on video and has witnesses. Marine had a P320 in a holster with the safety on and it went off...

I researched this issue — P320 accidental discharges, use of a manual safety — pretty carefully before buying a P320 a couple of months ago.

Could you post a link to the video of the incident above?

Here is a longish video on the manual safety design and test of the manual safety. In it, the gun is placed in a machine, manual safety engaged, and trigger is pulled. With safety engaged, a complete trigger pull occurs at 20 lbs. The striker, however, is not released, and the trigger is returned to functionality.

The test continues to about 100 lbs. The trigger bar breaks at that point, rendering the trigger non functional, but the striker is still not released.

The manual safety, it seems to me, is extremely robust.

You can start at about nine minutes in if you don't want to watch the whole video.

https://youtu.be/anZg4b-QLRA?si=tsCmWRgCtOkHn-mT

I am agnostic on whether or not the P320 without a manual safety is sufficiently safe, but I am convinced that with a manual safety engaged it will not discharge.

I like manual safeties.

 

[bobsguns]

The Sig P320 is no different than all of the other striker fired guns without a safety of which there are many.

Not true.

The Sig is designed in that the trigger pull releases the firing pin. Virtually every other striker gun uses the trigger to compress the mainspring. That's why the Glock has such an awful trigger, for example.

I'm not sold on the AD's not being ND's, with the shooter's finger being on the trigger when it's holstered.

 

[Rob613]

I researched this issue — P320 accidental discharges, use of a manual safety — pretty carefully before buying a P320 a couple of months ago.

Could you post a link to the video of the incident above?

Here is a longish video on the manual safety design and test of the manual safety. In it, the gun is placed in a machine, manual safety engaged, and trigger is pulled. With safety engaged, a complete trigger pull occurs at 20 lbs. The striker, however, is not released, and the trigger is returned to functionality.

The test continues to about 100 lbs. The trigger bar breaks at that point, rendering the trigger non functional, but the striker is still not released.

The manual safety, it seems to me, is extremely robust.

You can start at about nine minutes in if you don't want to watch the whole video.

https://youtu.be/anZg4b-QLRA?si=tsCmWRgCtOkHn-mT

I am agnostic on whether or not the P320 without a manual safety is sufficiently safe, but I am convinced that with a manual safety engaged it will not discharge.

I like manual safeties.

I don’t think they ever released the video but the report can be found here…

https://npr.brightspotcdn.com/86/f5/d87374f8497a81db30e2463aa80d/marine-corps-2023-02-14.pdf

 

[S-W4EVER]

Sig didn’t get the military contract because they had the best gun, they got the contract because they undercut everyone else and sold the guns to the military at basically cost. Then they use that as marketing to sell guns at over 100% profit to the public. Military even told Glock, they were never going to get the contract...

Same thing Glock did with LE. The only polymer frame pistols I own are HK’s, Glocks, and a couple PPS’s. The only reason I bought the Glocks is because they seldom break and there will always be parts and accessories available for them at reasonable prices due to volume. I almost never take them to the Range but they’re there (& lots of spare mags) I need them.

 

[Onomea]

I don’t think they ever released the video but the report can be found here…

https://npr.brightspotcdn.com/86/f5/d87374f8497a81db30e2463aa80d/marine-corps-2023-02-14.pdf

Thanks for that, Rob. I don't know how to reconcile this report with the YouTube video of the manual safety being tested I posted above...

VictorLouis's video is interesting as well. I watched the whole 40+ min thing. I think AD cases reviewed therein all were without manual thumb safeties. One thing I noted was the use of MIM parts, and expert testimony that some can be out of spec leading to failures. I know someone is offering a P320 replacement trigger with a trigger safety. I forget who the manufacturer is. I wonder if anyone is offering forged steel replacement parts.

 

[farmer20]

This is a concerning verdict, and I'm curious to know more about the specifics of the case. While it's crucial to hold manufacturers accountable for defects, it's also important to ensure that the verdict is fair and justified. Without knowing the details of the incident and the pistol in question, it's difficult to say whether the verdict is justified. However, $11 million seems like a substantial award.

 

[mrussell]

Not true.

The Sig is designed in that the trigger pull releases the firing pin. Virtually every other striker gun uses the trigger to compress the mainspring. That's why the Glock has such an awful trigger, for example.

I'm not sold on the AD's not being ND's, with the shooter's finger being on the trigger when it's holstered.

You are right about the mainspring being compressed. The point I was trying to make is the trigger on striker fired no safety guns are all susceptible to holstering mishaps. Granted the safety style trigger on the Glock can prevent AD’s in more cases than the Sig trigger.

 

[LVSteve]

Walther and Canik seem to be able to make pre-cocked striker guns that don’t go off at odd times.

 

[hardluk1]

I am not aware of a barrel issue as it must have been before the Legion version came out. I had been shooting a Glock 34 and just went to the X-Five Legion this year and now 5 of us in our group are shooting them. It is a heavy gun with the tungsten infused frame and allows for very fast follow up shots.

Then do your self a favor and research some of the P320 series issues . I can be eye opening into sig's lack of QC before production of a new product .

You may have to search your self but if the link below works , check it out but even the x5 legion had growing pains 18 months back that should not have been there .

Oh At some 43 oz that thang should lay flat yet is more about the shooter and the soft recoiling used most than the handgun. Glad your pleased with your P320 X5 L. There are also a number of "amassing "match type handgun brands and models out there today.

Case bulging/ firing out of battey - Sig - Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

 

[BE Mike]

Looks like many here are too young to remember issues with Glocks and the successful law suits and those which were settled out of court. I'm not throwing shade at Glocks. They are popular for good reason. It is alarming how one-sided some gun owners can be about their choice of product and will readily eat their own kind.

 

[GnarlsR2]

.... It is alarming how one-sided some gun owners can be about their choice of product and will readily eat their own kind.

Is cannibalism alive in the good ol’ US of A?

The P320 passed the Army’s required to pass the SAAMI drop safety test. The Army then discovered that the gun could discharge outside of the SAAMI criteria. Sig reduced the weight of the trigger and the passed the test. Sig offered a voluntary upgrade to pubic consumers.

So far has anyone ever been able to replicate a discharge without pulling the trigger?

My good friend’s Los Angeles Civil Defense Attorney told me once that 1 out of 4 persons convicted in a court of law, with or without a jury trial, are convicted for a crime they did not commit.

Sig will most likely win the case for $11M award on appeal.

Based upon all historical testing, lawsuits, analysis, dissecting the design by every expert on the planet, the P320 is the standard issue for the U.S. Army, Navy, Marin Corps, Air Force, US Immigration & Customers, National Park Service, US Park Police and Law Enforcement Rangers.

Today, arguably, the Sig Sauer P320 is probably one of THE “safest” handguns you can buy.

 

[sigp220.45]

In days of yore before almost everything was captured on video these discharges would have been written off as errant fingers on triggers.

Since there are now videos of 320s going off in holsters with no fingers around, the blame somehow falls on holsters.

At some point Sig is gonna have to face reality.

I like Sigs. I carried one for 25 years and I still carry a 210. I also like plastic guns, and carry some of them too. I have a P320 which was a birthday gift from kids and I’ll never get rid of it. Its a great range gun, but until Sig sorts itself I won’t be carrying it.

Life goes on.

 

[robertrwalsh]

With respect there is/was a difference. The takedown procedure on Glock requires that you pull the trigger. If you have not cleared the weapon it will go BANG. That is a design characteristic, not a design defect. A gun that goes BANG all by itself while in the holster and not being handled looks an awful lot like either a design defect or manufacturing defects on a large scale.

 

[Matt_X]

You beat me to it. At least two of us actually read up on the facts before commenting.

well now at least 3.
I think the story was updated.

Here's what I see as of 11/24/2024.
The story linked in first post of the thread came from Bloomberg News and now has no mention of a holster.
However, the AP story here Sig Sauer ordered to pay $11 million to Philadelphia man wounded by holstered pistol | AP News
states that the lawsuit claimed "defective gun and holster" Further, at the bottom it notes that the orignal story was ammended due to ambiguity as to whether the trigger was moved. to wit -

This story was first published on Nov. 20, 2024. It was updated on Nov. 21, 2024, to remove an erroneous reference to the plaintiff’s holstered pistol going off by itself. The plaintiff did not deny the gun fired because the trigger moved.


Those of you who have sat on juries will know there are often important points that are not clearly answered by evidence or testimony (or lack of). As far as I know the case is not sealedso the evidence and testimony is available for those willing and able to access it (time consuming, and expensive to pay for the transcript so few will do this).
Abraham v. Sig Sauer, No. 2206026605


Interestingly, according to The Trace the same doubts about the trigger being moved apparently were raised by Sig's lawyers in the Georgia lawsuit.


"During the Georgia trial, Lang conceded that it’s possible an unknown object or pressure from his gun’s holster had manipulated the trigger, but he argued that a properly designed gun would possess safeties to prevent it from firing in such a situation, or at least be sold with warnings about the weapon’s sensitivity. ...
Lang was carrying the most up-to-date version of the P320 pistol — released after the company modified the design in 2017 — when he attempted to remove the holstered weapon from his belt after returning home from work one night in December 2018. As part of his usual routine, Lang loosened his belt and reached for the weapon’s grip. That’s when he says it fired, still fully secured in its holster and with his fingers flat against the holster’s belt clip, away from the trigger. "


(side note: The Trace is a "anti gun violence" organization, so feel free to look for other sources for Lang's case)

 

[Doug M.]

As far as I know, all of the Glock cases involved improper handling, but I could be wrong. Whatever the design flaw in the P320 is, and I suspect a flaw combined with tolerance stacking, it has been there from the start. They were admittedly not drop safe. Friend of mine, an LE firearms guy, quoted that from the manual and did some testing with primed cases.

While Washington's training has been damaged by legislation driven by fabricated folklore about LE use of force, I'll note that the Criminal Justice Training Commission has prohibited the use of the P320 in all firearms classes. That could be a clue.

 

[BE Mike]

No personal offense given, but nothing that happens in Washington State surprises me. I have been qualifying with a Sig P320X Compact for several hundred rounds without incident and that has been from a holster. I have fired many thousands of rounds out of Sig P320's at the range. Last I checked, none of the pistols have discharged "on their own". Until I see any of these claims duplicated, I will continue to be a skeptic that these pistols are in any way unsafe.

 

[Terry G]

I have the P320 and 320 Compact. I always carry them in a OWB holster. Winning a law suit does not necessarily mean the findings were correct. Wouldn't Sig be forced to have a recall on these guns if they were in fact dangerous? I know an Officer that shot himself in the leg with a Glock 21. He tried to claim the gun just "Went Off" when he holstered it. His own dash cam showed him holstering the .45 with his finger in the trigger guard. Just sayin'.

 

[pasound]

This is similarly noted with a discussion over at Rugerforum about the lawsuit that caused Ruger to put a transfer bar under the hammer, change the trigger, and unlock the cylinder when opening the loading gate, on all their single-action revolvers.

This happened in 1972, and the same year, they started selling the Ruger Old Army black powder handgun. Probably the heaviest and strongest single-action ever built. You can load six, but it has notches between the caps that the hammer is lowered into to lock the cylinder and act as a safety. Just like most, if not all BP revolvers since their invention in the 1830's.

And Colt's single action, the load-one-skip-chamber-load-four five shooter has never been changed.

I guess what I'm thinking is there are ways to make any gun, safety or not, semi auto, double or single-action, unfireable unless the trigger is pulled.

Musings from an old shooter with a lot of experiences.

 

[bobsguns]

Since there are now videos of 320s going off in holsters with no fingers around, the blame somehow falls on holsters.

Yet you don't link to any of them...................

 

[HardToHandle]

Yet you don't link to any of them...................

Okey Dokey… The P320 litigation is now almost eight years old. There has been at least dozen people injured and likely hundreds of events.

US Military uncommanded discharges.
Documents detail U.S. soldiers shot by their own Sig Sauer guns; military says no reason for concern | New Hampshire Public Radio

The military's latest handgun might not be safe

US law enforcement uncommanded discharges.
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Detective Brittney Hilton sues Sig Sauer after she says holstered P320 pistol seriously wounded her - ABC13 Houston

Officer’s gun that fired inside Cambridge school is latest Sig Sauer incident | WBUR News

https://www.publicradiotulsa.org/lo...cers-sue-sig-sauer-say-gun-goes-off-by-itself

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news...milwaukee-police-sig-sauer-p-320/10433980002/