38 Special use in early HE's

[45NUTT]

I am assuming that if the revolver says 38 Special on the barrel, it is okay to shoot standard 38 special in it. If the barrel says 38 S&W CTG, then it would be the shorter 38, correct?

I am looking at a 1905 M&P and the barrel has the 38 Special ctg marking. I am fairly new to the older S&W revolvers and I have been bitten hard!

On another note, which book do y'all recommend for a reference? I was looking on Amazon for one by Roy Jinks. Is there one that is better?

To date I have acquired a nickel HE 32 Long 4th change, a pre model 30 32 Long, a blued 32-20 3rd (?) change and a 6" nickel 32-20 3rd or 4th change.

When did target sights become more readily available on HE's?

 

[jimmyj]

I am a "Non-Expert" but if the serial number starts with a "V" I would observed the caliber stamp on the right side of the barrel to determine if the number and letters are larger than the other letters and numbers as many of the M&Ps in .38 S&W caliber had the chambers bored out to accept .38 Special cartridges. After WWII tons of these were imported from overseas and had this done to make them more desirable for resale.

 

[glowe]

It depends on what you mean by "early"? There were no S&W K frames made in 38 S&W before WWII (well maybe a handful were made before WWII). Original factory 38 S&W revolvers were built with short chambers and larger bore. There were military revolvers chambered in 38 Long Colt from 1899 into the Model 1902. All standard 38 Special has been shot in these guns from the invention of smokeless powder without issue.

Best two books are Neal & Jinks Smith & Wesson 1857 - 1945 and the Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson, 5th Edition by Nahas & Supica.

Lastly, K frame target revolvers were made available starting with the Model 1899 throughout production. Grew from around 3% (1899 & 1902) to under 10% (1905) of total production through WWII.

 

[kscharlie]

The two books mentioned by Gary are must haves IMO. The Neal & Jinks book has been offered in the past in a number of editions. I would recommend the 1975 Revised Edition of "SMITH & WESSON 1857-1945", the reason being that an appendix was added that provides a very nice collection of radiographs (similar to an x-ray) of S&W firearms. Much more data has also been added to that edition.

One other book not mentioned so far is "History of Smith & Wesson" by Roy Jinks. My copy is the revised tenth anniversary edition. With these two books plus the Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson by Nahas and Supica will give you enough reading (and reference) material to last a long time. I use all three of these books frequently.

I often use AbeBooks to find used books on the market. They are a type of clearinghouse for book sellers, similar to the way GunBroker works for gun sellers. Here is a link to the search results for author "Roy Jinks":
Roy Jinks - AbeBooks Prices vary widely, so it pays to spend a bit of time browsing the various offerings. Again, like guns, some sellers are optimistic, others are realistic.

Lastly, here is a plug for joining the Smith & Wesson Collectors Association. When it was first formed, they started sending out quarterly (IIRC) newsletters with articles and information included. This transformed into the SWCA Journal, which is one of the nicest private publications in existence IMO. Every newsletter and Journal has been copied into a digital format and they are all available on the SWCA private forum. The price of membership in the SWCA is a pittance to pay for the information available in these journals.

Hope this helps.

 

[Truckman]

One other book not mentioned so far is "History of Smith & Wesson" by Roy Jinks.

Maybe one other: "Smith & Wesson Hand Guns" by McHenry and Roper...My 1st edition is a real treasure......Ben

 

[murphydog]

In a mechanically sound gun, standard pressure .38 Special is perfectly safe.

 

[45NUTT]

Thanks. I have ordered the Neal & Jinks book and have the Standard Catalog of S&W 5th Edition bookmarked for next week's expenditures.

 

[rct269]

In a mechanically sound gun, standard pressure .38 Special is perfectly safe.

Let's take that a few steps further.

The muzzle velocity of a standard pressure .38 Special is 755 fps (the regular every day 158 grain bullet load)---as we speak------today, from a 4" vented barrel.

Once upon a time, the muzzle velocity of the EXACT SAME cartridge was 950 fps. That was in the 1920's and 1930's.

The .38/44 S&W Special came out at 1226 fps. That's the load for the "Heavy Duty" and the pre-war 34/44 Outdoorsman revolvers. That's the same load S&W recommended not be used in a regular, everyday .38 Special revolvers. I'm thinking maybe, just maybe that's because they wanted you to buy one of those N frame .38 Special revolvers----kind of like today when they want you to buy a gun "Rated for +P". That, the +P load, comes out at 890fps.

All this is reminding me of fishing tackle. Many will tell you fishing tackle is made to catch fish. Some, perhaps more thoughtful folks, will tell you fishing tackle is made to sell to fishermen --------and women.

Today's +P cartridge (EXACT SAME LOAD) is coming out at a whopping 890 fps---and you should buy a gun "Rated for +P". Really? Why?

Well there are +P loads rated much higher than 890 fps. What's up with that?! What's up with that is those loads use lighter bullets.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[alwslate]

rct269 wrong again. In the 1920s and 1930s the standard pressure 38 Special velocity was NOT EVER 950 fps. Early 38 Special velocity was 800 fps from a 4" revolver and about 850 fps out of a 6" revolver. WHY continue to post this incorrect information?

 

[rct269]

rct269 wrong again. In the 1920s and 1930s the standard pressure 38 Special velocity was NOT EVER 950 fps. Early 38 Special velocity was 800 fps from a 4" revolver and about 850 fps out of a 6" revolver. WHY continue to post this incorrect information?

I continue to post this information because it's that to which I have access. It comes primarily from S&W's catalogs----from 1925 (the earliest), 1930, 1931, 1932, and 1941. The current information comes from the Gun Digest.

So, how about this: You tell us where your conflicting information comes from, and we'll go from there.

Sound like a plan?

Ralph Tremaine

 

[jsfricks]

Thanks. I have ordered the Neal & Jinks book and have the Standard Catalog of S&W 5th Edition bookmarked for next week's expenditures.

The Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson, 5th Edition is the cheapest I’ve seen it on Amazon so I wouldn’t wait too long. A few weeks ago it was close to $70.

 

[Wingmaster]

Another thing I don't think was mentioned is that "CTG" stands for Cartridge. If it says .38 Special CTG it is safe to shoot .38 Special ammo.

 

[alwslate]

I continue to post this information because it's that to which I have access. It comes primarily from S&W's catalogs----from 1925 (the earliest), 1930, 1931, 1932, and 1941. The current information comes from the Gun Digest.

So, how about this: You tell us where your conflicting information comes from, and we'll go from there.

Sound like a plan?

Ralph Tremaine

Yeah your information comes from box labels of S&W branded ammo which is proof of nothing except that published data has no relevance to actual chronographed velocities. An absent member used to do the same thing with pics of an ammo box. The history of the development of the .38 spl should be well known to most by now. When first developed as a Black Powder ctg to replace the old .38 Long Colt the .38 spl load was a 158 gr RN bullet at 850 fps out of a 6" barreled revolver. The reason was that it satisfied the desire for more power and was as accurate at 50 yds as the 148 gr WC load. The std 158 gr .38 spl factory load for many years was a 158 gr bullet at 800 fps out of a 4" barrel. Some time back the velocity was dropped to 755 fps because of many old revolvers of unknown strength still in use. Lets see your proof the standard pressure 158 gr factory ammo EVER actually chronographed 950 fps out of a 4" barrel. You should know better than to continue to post this.

 

[DWalt]

The .38 Special cartridge was originally designed for black powder. It was simply the older .38 Long Colt U. S. military cartridge but with a slightly longer case that could hold more black powder and produce an increased muzzle velocity. Thus it was “Special.” Early S&W K-frame .38 revolvers (up th a serial number of approximately 100000) used a barrel caliber stamping which was “.38 Special and U. S. Service CTG,” the latter being the older and shorter .38 Long Colt, which in fact was the standard U. S. Military revolver cartridge from around 1890 into the early 20th Century. It even saw some limited military service into the WWI era. Although the .38 Special was converted to use smokeless powder very soon after its appearance, black powder .38 Special cartridges continued to be available as a factory load well into the 1930s. In the early 1930s, an uploaded .38 Special cartridge appeared. It was called generically the “.38-44” but also under several other names according to its manufacturer. It was intended for use in heavier frame revolvers, producing a muzzle velocity given as being in the mid-1100s range. Despite warnings to the contrary, the .38-44 can be, and was, used safely in any .38 Special revolver in good condition. That cartridge was dropped from the factory loading lists over 50 years ago, but it is still available from the boutique ammunition companies. Or you can easily reload.38 Special to the same performance level yourself. Today’s closest cartridge to the .38-44 is the .38 Special +P, which I consider to be nothing more than a sales gimmick.

 

[BMur]

38 Special STANDARD PRESSURE

Standard Pressure for the 38 Special is an extremely broad subject.

Introduced in 1899 there were no Standards.
However, there were early powder companies and very early catalogs that listed the 38 Special as follows;

38M ( Military) 1899-1902
19-21 grains of FFG ( NOT FFFG) bullet 167grain RN
Performance: 725-785 FPS. 7600 LUP/CUP/PSI

38 SPECIAL 1902(SMOKELESS) Introduced increased strength to forcing cone and base pin barrel lock.
Laflin & Rand
DuPont. 3 grains Bullseye/ 4 Grains No 2
158 grain RN bullet 9,000- 12,000 PSI
performance: 750-825 FPS

38 SPECIAL 1926. SAAMI STANDARDS:
17,000 PSI
Significant increase in strength at forcing cone!
TOO MANY LOADS TO LIST ( MODERN)

So just having 38 Special stamped on the barrel DOES NOT MEAN you can shop for any modern commercial loading in that caliber.

It depends upon when your specific gun was manufactured. The smart play is to stay within the pressures I just posted if you have an early gun that pre-dates 1926 standards.

Murph