Bodyguard 2.0 Hollow Point Problem

[Brian Parrish]

Ok… it’s definitely the Fiocchi ammo. I found this post on Reddit. Check out the video. This is exactly what I experienced. Stay away from Fiocchi .380!

https://www.reddit.com/r/SigSauer/comments/1f7kw9q/fiocci_xtp_380_not_feeding_in_the_p365/

Thanks I watched that. I do not think the video shows what we need to see. It may only show that Smith & Wesson let another pistol out the door with the same problem or defect as yours. The name on the box is not causing the malfunction. There is some characteristic of the ammo that is causing the problem. The video shooter only shows us that the gun has jammed, and we cannot see into it to determine where and how it jammed.

Looking at some photos of Fiocchi 380 90 GR XTP JHP, it appears to me that they are using the XTP bullet which has the same geometry as the Critical Defense load, to which I was referring earlier. The angle of the feed ramp and the angle profile of the projectile mate up so as to slide the case mouth right straight into that crack or joint or whatever in the 2-piece feed ramp. If you could just see in there, you could tell me why I am wrong.

I believe that the Federal HST would work in your gun!

Best to You!
BrianD

 

[Rf53]

Thanks I watched that. I do not think the video shows what we need to see. It may only show that Smith & Wesson let another pistol out the door with the same problem or defect as yours. The name on the box is not causing the malfunction. There is some characteristic of the ammo that is causing the problem. The video shooter only shows us that the gun has jammed, and we cannot see into it to determine where and how it jammed.

Looking at some photos of Fiocchi 380 90 GR XTP JHP, it appears to me that they are using the XTP bullet which has the same geometry as the Critical Defense load, to which I was referring earlier. The angle of the feed ramp and the angle profile of the projectile mate up so as to slide the case mouth right straight into that crack or joint or whatever in the 2-piece feed ramp. If you could just see in there, you could tell me why I am wrong.

I believe that the Federal HST would work in your gun!

Best to You!
BrianD

That was an Sig in the video.

 

[FoundFather]

Two Part Feed Ramp to Blame

As other s have posted in this thread, I think the price blen is the two part feed ramp in the BG 2.0, together with the geometry of hollow points. I have seen a thread in another forum coming to the same conclusion.

This begs the question of whether you should use hollow points in a .380. I have always thought the answer was no.l because of insufficient velocity for expansion.

Have you tried the Xtreme Defense ammo?

 

[KevinC]

Similar issue and found a solution that works for my BG2

I just posted this same comment on another thread in this forum that was specific to Hornady Critical Defense and BG2. Not sure if this is the same issue you are having, but it solved my issue. Here is my post:

Hello All,

I ran into the exact same issue and registered on the forum to share what I discovered. I have put about a thousand rounds of range ammo through by Bodyguard 2.0 without a single failure to feed, stove pipe or any issue. I have been ecstatic at how well I can shoot this gun an how accurate it is for me.

I am not overly experienced and did not realize I should shoot or at least manually cycle my EDC ammo to make sure that it works well. I too purchased Hornady Critical Defense for my EDC ammo due to its great reputation and recommendation from the local gun shop. For the thousand rounds of range ammo, I used about a half dozen different brands, whatever was decent ammo for a good price at the time.

For the first time today I manually cycled the Hornady CD ammo and two thirds of the rounds did not feed properly and ended up at about a 45 degree angle without loading properly leaving the slide about halfway closed and jammed up. At first I figured I had done something to cause what I assumed was damage to my new favorite EDC gun so I quickly called my very experienced friend who is a competitive shooter and has loaded more than 100k rounds with his own equipment.

First thing he said is that I probably haven't done anything to ruin my gun and that we can figure this out by a process of elimination. He talked me through many of the suggestions that others have put fourth in this thread. After trying many of these and ruling other out, I still had the issue.

He then said lets see if we can rule out an issue with the ammo and had me remove the Hornady CD from the magazines and load my range ammo. Low and behold the range ammo cycled just fine as it always had. He then had me do the same thing with two more range ammo brands that I still had and it all still cycled without issue.

This lead us to believe that something was different with the Hornady CD ammo that was causing this issue. He asked me several questions about the rounds and nothing really came to the surface. He then said put a range ammo round next to the Hornady CD on the table both standing up and asked if there was a height difference and there was. I grabbed my calipers and it turned out that the Hornady CD was about 1.4 mm shorter than all of the other range ammo. He then told me that some gun models can be very finicky about the length of the round and that they may not feed properly up the ramp. He said when they are loading competition rounds, they will check every tenth round to make sure they are staying to spec as far as length.

I then took my box of Hornady CD to the gun store where I purchased them and when they looked at them, they were very surprised because with the naked eye you could see that the heights varied between the CD rounds. They were low on EDC ammo and did not have any of the CD to compare it to, but I grabbed a couple of other brands of hollow point EDC and they were all longer than the CD, more the length of the range ammo that feeds so well in the BG 2.0. I purchased the Sig hollow points and they are feeding just fine through my BG 2.0

Lessons learned:
1. Bodyguard 2.0 (or at least mine) is particular to the length of the round and if it is too short will not feed properly.
2. Always manually cycle AND shoot your EDC rounds before you use them as EDC. (I made a very bad assumption that if everything else feeds fine then my more expensive EDC will as well.)

I am going to call Hornady on Monday and see what their thoughts are on the length of their CD rounds. Once the gun store has the CD rounds back in stock I will take my calipers in and compare the height to my current CD rounds. I will update my post with this info.

 

[Rf53]

I just posted this same comment on another thread in this forum that was specific to Hornady Critical Defense and BG2. Not sure if this is the same issue you are having, but it solved my issue. Here is my post:

Hello All,

I ran into the exact same issue and registered on the forum to share what I discovered. I have put about a thousand rounds of range ammo through by Bodyguard 2.0 without a single failure to feed, stove pipe or any issue. I have been ecstatic at how well I can shoot this gun an how accurate it is for me.

I am not overly experienced and did not realize I should shoot or at least manually cycle my EDC ammo to make sure that it works well. I too purchased Hornady Critical Defense for my EDC ammo due to its great reputation and recommendation from the local gun shop. For the thousand rounds of range ammo, I used about a half dozen different brands, whatever was decent ammo for a good price at the time.

For the first time today I manually cycled the Hornady CD ammo and two thirds of the rounds did not feed properly and ended up at about a 45 degree angle without loading properly leaving the slide about halfway closed and jammed up. At first I figured I had done something to cause what I assumed was damage to my new favorite EDC gun so I quickly called my very experienced friend who is a competitive shooter and has loaded more than 100k rounds with his own equipment.

First thing he said is that I probably haven't done anything to ruin my gun and that we can figure this out by a process of elimination. He talked me through many of the suggestions that others have put fourth in this thread. After trying many of these and ruling other out, I still had the issue.

He then said lets see if we can rule out an issue with the ammo and had me remove the Hornady CD from the magazines and load my range ammo. Low and behold the range ammo cycled just fine as it always had. He then had me do the same thing with two more range ammo brands that I still had and it all still cycled without issue.

This lead us to believe that something was different with the Hornady CD ammo that was causing this issue. He asked me several questions about the rounds and nothing really came to the surface. He then said put a range ammo round next to the Hornady CD on the table both standing up and asked if there was a height difference and there was. I grabbed my calipers and it turned out that the Hornady CD was about 1.4 mm shorter than all of the other range ammo. He then told me that some gun models can be very finicky about the length of the round and that they may not feed properly up the ramp. He said when they are loading competition rounds, they will check every tenth round to make sure they are staying to spec as far as length.

I then took my box of Hornady CD to the gun store where I purchased them and when they looked at them, they were very surprised because with the naked eye you could see that the heights varied between the CD rounds. They were low on EDC ammo and did not have any of the CD to compare it to, but I grabbed a couple of other brands of hollow point EDC and they were all longer than the CD, more the length of the range ammo that feeds so well in the BG 2.0. I purchased the Sig hollow points and they are feeding just fine through my BG 2.0

Lessons learned:
1. Bodyguard 2.0 (or at least mine) is particular to the length of the round and if it is too short will not feed properly.
2. Always manually cycle AND shoot your EDC rounds before you use them as EDC. (I made a very bad assumption that if everything else feeds fine then my more expensive EDC will as well.)

I am going to call Hornady on Monday and see what their thoughts are on the length of their CD rounds. Once the gun store has the CD rounds back in stock I will take my calipers in and compare the height to my current CD rounds. I will update my post with this info.

Thank you for posting your experience. It is becoming clear that there is a problem with some of the ammunition being manufactured for .380 pistols since you and I had the same issue with different brands, me with Fiocchi and you within Hornady. Some will say that it is a manufacturing flaw particular to the BG2, but that is not the case because the video I found from Reddit that I posted on this thread shows the same issue occurring with a Sig P365 and Fiocchi ammo. Others will say that it is user induced malfunctions but since this is happening to many different people with varying degrees of experience that is also not correct.

While it is true that there are documented cases of different weapons being finicky regarding different brands of ammunition I do not find comfort in simply using trial and error to determine what works well. Yes, both you and I found EDC ammunition that cycles well through our guns, but as you have pointed out there are also many out there who are not even aware of the problem and they are carrying guns and ammo that may fail them in an emergency.

I think both the gun manufacturers and the ammo manufacturers need to step up and either fix the problem, or at the very least put out a warning about the potential issues.

I have contacted Smith & Wesson about my experience and I hope to hear from them so I can discuss what I think they already know. There are certain brands of ammo that do not work well with the BG2 and either they need to recall the guns and fix the issue or work with ammo manufacturers to cure the issue.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Having only been on this forum for nigh on to 15 years, I really can't recall a new S&W product with just SO many different threads and SO MANY different experiences...

They say that things associated with carbon-based lifeforms on this, the 3rd Planet from the Sun typically operate on a bell-shaped curve?

Well, where the BG2 is concerned it almost seems like the curve is actually "U-shaped"!

People either enthusiasticly just LOVE IT! right out of the box, or are seemingly cursed with constant failures to... Well, you name it!

As far as the design with the split feeding ramp is concerned, I anticipate there was some reasoning behind it, but it is a mystery to me.

I'm still Hoping for the Best for all the owners, but I sort'a wonder if a BODYGUARD 3 might not be on the horizon someday?

Cheers!

 

[URIT]

I've looked but can't find any source that says the S&W Bodyguard 2.0 was designed for "self defense" JHP ammo. I'd be surprised if it wasn't designed for best performance using range ammo (FMJ). The manual does say no +P or +P+ or untested rounds.

Now, often touted by the seller of the expensive JHP ammo, is the FMJ ammo has too much penetration. Really!? We are talking about a pocket pistol with a 2.75" barrel for self defense purposes with the Bodyguard.

Penetration is good, even better when bouncing off bones, rather than clogging with fabric and tumbling with not enough penetration. The FBI recommends 12" in gel.

Measure your body front to back or side to side. You may just want that penetration and bone fragmentation working in your favor.

FMJ has a couple of other advantages in .380 other than penetration. It is cheaper! So cheap you can shoot your carry ammo all the time.

In addition to cost per round, recoil stays the same, point of aim/point of impact stays the same, and reliability can be confirmed over and over again at the practice range.

The FMJ rounded profile tends to feed better in the sometimes fussy pocket pistols like the Bodyguard and most .380 micro hanguns.

So hype or proven performance out of your personally owned pistol is a question you need to address and then feel comfortable with your decision.

 

[Rf53]

Having only been on this forum for nigh on to 15 years, I really can't recall a new S&W product with just SO many different threads and SO MANY different experiences...

They say that things associated with carbon-based lifeforms on this, the 3rd Planet from the Sun typically operate on a bell-shaped curve?

Well, where the BG2 is concerned it almost seems like the curve is actually "U-shaped"!

People either enthusiasticly just LOVE IT! right out of the box, or are seemingly cursed with constant failures to... Well, you name it!

As far as the design with the split feeding ramp is concerned, I anticipate there was some reasoning behind it, but it is a mystery to me.

I'm still Hoping for the Best for all the owners, but I sort'a wonder if a BODYGUARD 3 might not be on the horizon someday?

Cheers!

I obviously cannot tell with the naked eye what is happening to the hollow point rounds that are failing to feed, but it looks to me as though for some reason they are going high and right instead of into the barrel. That does not happen with ball or other ammunition that is more cone shaped. It should be easy enough for the manufacturer to determine.

As for Smith & Wesson, if this is truly a manufacturing flaw, there should be a recall.

 

[Funflyer]

I stopped buying Fiocchi 380 ammo years ago after having feed issues with several of my pistols. In a nutshell, the problem is the rim is thicker than all other brands of 380 ammo. The thick rim has issues sliding easily behind some extractors causing the slide to lose energy and not fully return to battery. On some pistols there's not enough space between the extractor hook and breech face for the round to fit without binding which will cause the same issue. As a reloader I separate Fiocchi and Perfecta (same manufacturer) brass and load it for my pistols that will feed it, then leave it at the range for someone else to pick up.

 

[geeollie]

Many years ago I shipped a Kahr 9mm back to their factory because our department issued 9mm Gold Dot would not feed 100%. Kahr returned the gun with a newly machined barrel. They told me that the Gold Dot ogive was different enough that they needed to lengthen the chamber of my gun.

That was something I had never before considered nor would I have been able to detect this. The Bodyguard 2.0??? Who knows. I vote for that above mentioned Bodyguard 3.0!!!

 

[Rf53]

I stopped buying Fiocchi 380 ammo years ago after having feed issues with several of my pistols. In a nutshell, the problem is the rim is thicker than all other brands of 380 ammo. The thick rim has issues sliding easily behind some extractors causing the slide to lose energy and not fully return to battery. On some pistols there's not enough space between the extractor hook and breech face for the round to fit without binding which will cause the same issue. As a reloader I separate Fiocchi and Perfecta (same manufacturer) brass and load it for my pistols that will feed it, then leave it at the range for someone else to pick up.

Good to know. Just to say I did, I went on the Fiocchi website and filed a warranty claim for the ammunition I bought. I will let you know what they say. I still have the entire box and I guess I could go down to the gun shop where I purchased it for an exchange or a refund but it is a 40 minute drive for me so I’m not keen on doing this since I will spend 1/3 of the money I recuperate on gas.

On a serious note, if the manufacturer knows that these failures can occur with several weapons on the market it is pretty irresponsible of them to sell the product as an EDC self-defense option.

 

[Rf53]

Many years ago I shipped a Kahr 9mm back to their factory because our department issued 9mm Gold Dot would not feed 100%. Kahr returned the gun with a newly machined barrel. They told me that the Gold Dot ogive was different enough that they needed to lengthen the chamber of my gun.

That was something I had never before considered nor would I have been able to detect this. The Bodyguard 2.0??? Who knows. I vote for that above mentioned Bodyguard 3.0!!!

At this point I think the BG2 is solid, but some of the ammo out there is fugazi. That is why most LO agencies limit the type of ammo you carry. In my case it was always provided to us and we knew it had been tested throughly with all the approved guns. I never heard of a non shooter induced failure to feed. I’m sure it must have happened at some point but that’s how rare it was.

There is a lesson here. Do not trust, verify. As I stated before in another post there are probably thousands of people out there carrying ammo they have never put through their guns.

 

[Beju]

Now, often touted by the seller of the expensive JHP ammo, is the FMJ ammo has too much penetration. Really!? We are talking about a pocket pistol with a 2.75" barrel for self defense purposes with the Bodyguard.

Penetration is good, even better when bouncing off bones, rather than clogging with fabric and tumbling with not enough penetration. The FBI recommends 12" in gel.

Measure your body front to back or side to side. You may just want that penetration and bone fragmentation working in your favor.

Valid points.

I would add that 12" of gel penetration is not directly analogous to 12" of penetration in a human body made of more elastic (skin, some organs) and harder structures (bones). Then there's the issue that a bullet may need to pass through an arm before hitting the torso. An arm pointing a gun at you may present several inches of penetration depending on the angle. If you hit the dominant arm, then that may cause the gun to be dropped. If you hit the non-dominant arm, them maybe not.

Even if it were directly analogous, 12" of penetration in a flabby individual may not be 12" of penetration in a just released ex-con with prison muscles. Density and elasticity of tissue varies person to person.

While on the topic of penetration, common self defense calibers that go through a torso often get stopped by clothes on the other side (many big city trauma nurses can attest to this), or fall to the ground a couple feet away from the body.

Because .380 JHP often exhibit shallow penetration, especially from short barrel pistols, .380 is the one caliber where FMJ is allowed for Chicago Police (they're allowed .380 for off-duty/backup guns). I've heard that the same is true for LAPD.

 

[geeollie]

At this point I think the BG2 is solid, but some of the ammo out there is fugazi. That is why most LO agencies limit the type of ammo you carry. In my case it was always provided to us and we knew it had been tested throughly with all the approved guns. I never heard of a non shooter induced failure to feed. I’m sure it must have happened at some point but that’s how rare it was.

There is a lesson here. Do not trust, verify. As I stated before in another post there are probably thousands of people out there carrying ammo they have never put through their guns.

All our on duty guns were Glock. For off duty you could carry anything, but it had to use department issued ammo. We used the newly introduced Gold Dots. Oh the good ole days of shooting until you get tired. For most of us today shooting several boxes of our preferred carry ammo is fairly costly. And I agree with you on "do not trust, verify"!!!

 

[Beju]

All our on duty guns were Glock. For off duty you could carry anything, but it had to use department issued ammo. We used the newly introduced Gold Dots. Oh the good ole days of shooting until you get tired. For most of us today shooting several boxes of our preferred carry ammo is fairly costly. And I agree with you on "do not trust, verify"!!!

Did they stick with that through the 2020-2021 ammo shortages? I'd heard of some departments with policies restricted to one brand getting caught not being able to get the ammunition that they wanted in expedient fashion.

 

[geeollie]

I was gone from there by 2020. The Sheriff's Dept I was at got very low on Gold Dot and went with Remington, green box not the Golden Saber.

You know, don't think I've read anyone on this forum using Golden Sabre in .380. Probably for good reason, but I wonder if it would cycle.

 

[Beju]

From what I've seen, Golden Saber 380 through short barrels tended to expand but have shallow penetration in bare gel, and clog up and fail to expand through heavy clothing.

Though, I guess on the plus side, 380 GS doesn't have enough velocity to have the core/jacket separation issues that the non-bonded 9mm version often had.

 

[GnarlsR2]

"As I stated before in another post there are probably thousands of people out there carrying ammo they have never put through their guns."

REALLY??

 

[Rf53]

"As I stated before in another post there are probably thousands of people out there carrying ammo they have never put through their guns."

REALLY??

Yes. I live in a very large metropolitan area in a state that allows permitless concealed carry. Every mother’s son is assumed to be carrying. That includes lots of people who have practically never fired a gun. Sure, maybe they’ve gone to the range a couple of times. But mostly they buy a box, load up, and off they go.

Please know that this is not a commentary on the state policy, so don’t bring hate because you think I’m against it. Quite the opposite. But I know for a fact that what I’m saying is true. We would need a hundred new ranges if all the people carrying were to put a box of their EDC ammo through the gun they carry.

So yes, where I live there are probably thousands of people who bought a gun, fired a few rounds of practice ammo at the range, and then loaded up with hollow point they have never fired. That is not a good thing given the subject of this thread and others like it.

 

[Born2saw]

FWIW my BG2 has been trouble free with the exception that the 10 round mag would not lock open on empty. An e-mail to SW and I received a new mag in 4 days that works perfectly.

I am currently carrying Federal Premium Hydra-Shok Deep for a defensive ammo. No issues feeding after running nearly 100 rounds through the gun. Does not expand as much as a traditional HP from but what I have found it is a good compromise between using a HP that won’t penetrate and expand from a short barrel and just using FMJ.