Heavy Clothing Stops .38 Wadcutter!

[Dump1567]

Not sure if this video will load. Basically, wadcutters only went about 5 inches into gel when going through heavy clothes. Whereas a Lead Round Nose bullet still had adequate penetration (12 inches+). I guess the clothing drags along with the WC slowing down the bullet.

I was under the impression a WC would be a good winter carry due to penetration protentional. Guess I was wrong. Although the amount of clothing used in the test may have been overkill.

I wonder how some of the top performing HP ammo would perform under the same conditions.

Sounds like a 158gr. LRN might be a better carry ammo in winter heavy coat conditions. Wonder if a SWC would do the same?

Heavy Clothing Stops .38 Wadcutter?!? Unbelievable Results .38 Special LRN VS Wadcutter from Snub

https://youtu.be/qKaiQZ9XKS4

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Interesting.

I always thought wadcutters would be useful, too, but I've never bothered to load them in a gun except for practice. Now I know!

 

[Muss Muggins]

I'ma guess that those wadcutters would make the fella' assaulting you change his disposition and goals, which is all you're really trying to accomplish . . .

 

[URIT]

I'm thinking 5 inches can ruin someone's day. Measure 5-inches on your torso. Depending on shot location, what major organs are you going to miss?

I prefer to carry the 158gr .38 LRN.

 

[Sgt. Buzzard]

Three decades on the job. That was more than 50 years ago. I served in the days of the rather miserable 158 gr. LRN. I saw one of those bounce off an aluminum Afro comb. I can't say I ever saw heavy clothing stop a wadcutter. They seem to cut through quite nicely.

I carry a five shot load of hardcast wadcutters that are hotter than standard. I find it comforting. YMMV.

 

[Autonomous]

I'd like to see the results confirmed elsewhere.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

I'm thinking 5 inches can ruin someone's day. Measure 5-inches on your torso. Depending on shot location, what major organs are you going to miss?

I prefer to carry the 158gr .38 LRN.

Agreed. 5 inches into the human torso will easily reach the heart, lungs, aorta, liver, spleen, intestines, or make a mess out of the leftovers from the last meal. Probably not the same as a genuine certified Jello test performed by experts, but still some nasty wounding capabilities.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

The meaning of ANECDOTAL is based on or consisting of reports or observations of usually unscientific observers.

I think most people tend to overthink what they load into a revolver. When we had to carry 158 grain LRN no one ever called in Sick because they could not carry a "boutique brand" bullet.

 

[bobsguns]

Let's add a few facts into this, please.

Commercial wadcutter ammo is loaded very lightly, a target load if you will. Generally, it will be around 600-700 feet per second. That load won't penetrate a lot of barriers & bodies.

Lead round nose ammo will be loaded a wee bit faster, but nothing to write home about. Lead round nose is also VERY soft, probably won't penetrate modern auto windshields & the like.

Semi-wadcutters (SWC) are better but it depends on the loading. How fast is it & how hard is the bullet? Lotsa variations in that load.

Now, if the wadcutter is hopped up a bit in f/p/s, say to 900-1000f/p/s, then that's an entirely different animal.

A LRN bullet won't leave a large wound channel. A wadcutter will leave a much larger channel. Anyone who has shot paper targets can see the difference between the two.

My .o2

 

[bobsguns]

Agreed. 5 inches into the human torso will easily reach the heart, lungs, aorta, liver, spleen, intestines, or make a mess out of the leftovers from the last meal. Probably not the same as a genuine certified Jello test performed by experts, but still some nasty wounding capabilities.

You've not been to Wal-Mart in the last 10 years & seen all the sweat hogs riding those scooters? Their fat alone is a good 5 inches. Compound that with a heavy winter coat & a perp hopped-up on lord knows what, *I* don't want to wish for better ammo, IMO.

My opinion is, we're not in the 1950s anymore. B&W tv's are gone, AM-only radios are gone, skinny women are gone. Modern times & guns should have modern ammo, IMO.

My .o2

 

[GnarlsR2]

Penetration, like velocity and energy seems to be the one measurement that all the “tests” talk about.

If the FBI wants 12” they must have tested and measured it for the outcome they want.

99% of what I see on Youtube “experts” is anecdotal and hypothetical.

A 380 round over-penetrating is not something I’m going to be thinking about if I have to defend myself and pull the trigger against an attacker.

“The adult male upper torso contains 51 bones: 26 vertebrae, 24 ribs, and the sternum. The 26 vertebrae are comprised of 7 cervical, 12 thoracic, and 5 lumbar vertebrae, plus the sacrum and coccyx.”

An adult male has 64 bones in their arms, with 32 bones in each arm. Add the 27 bones in the male adult hand, and ANY one of those bones may deflect or prevent a 380 Auto round from reaching one of the 5 vital organs.

 

[Eddietruett]

Let's add a few facts into this, please.

Commercial wadcutter ammo is loaded very lightly, a target load if you will. Generally, it will be around 600-700 feet per second. That load won't penetrate a lot of barriers & bodies.

Lead round nose ammo will be loaded a wee bit faster, but nothing to write home about. Lead round nose is also VERY soft, probably won't penetrate modern auto windshields & the like.

Semi-wadcutters (SWC) are better but it depends on the loading. How fast is it & how hard is the bullet? Lotsa variations in that load.

Now, if the wadcutter is hopped up a bit in f/p/s, say to 900-1000f/p/s, then that's an entirely different animal.

A LRN bullet won't leave a large wound channel. A wadcutter will leave a much larger channel. Anyone who has shot paper targets can see the difference between the two.

My .o2

I think you are on the money. Velocity, mass and hardness of the Lead could change the outcome drastically. Most of my buddies carry a 230gr WC (designed for bowling pins) running 800-900 fps depending on the gun. In a J Frame it’s brutal to shoot and in a K frame it’s not a walk in the park, but it’s a devastating defense load. I guarantee it will penetrate over 5”. I’m sure it’s rough on a J Frame, but that was never a consideration.

 

[Kanewpadle]

If he’s not using 10% calibrated gel, the test means nothing.

 

[smoothshooter]

Not sure if this video will load. Basically, wadcutters only went about 5 inches into gel when going through heavy clothes. Whereas a Lead Round Nose bullet still had adequate penetration (12 inches+). I guess the clothing drags along with the WC slowing down the bullet.

I was under the impression a WC would be a good winter carry due to penetration protentional. Guess I was wrong. Although the amount of clothing used in the test may have been overkill.

I wonder how some of the top performing HP ammo would perform under the same conditions.

Sounds like a 158gr. LRN might be a better carry ammo in winter heavy coat conditions. Wonder if a SWC would do the same?



https://youtu.be/qKaiQZ9XKS4

Even with heavy clothing, I’ll bet the “shootee” would still feel a heck of a punch when hit, and may go down thinking he must have a pretty bad wound and should immediately change his focus from criminal activity to getting to the nearest hospital as soon as possible. I

 

[hkcavalier]

Sure, 5 inches will get to vitals but that's not really the point. One of the main points of the old FBI trials was to ensure the load could reach the spine reliably. The Miami shootout showed that CNS hits are the only reliable way to quickly incapacitate with everyday common calibers. Platt was mortally wounded but still fought for a relatively (gunfight standards) long time. Mortally wounded ≠ incapacitated.

I still carry Federal HST Micros in my 442, the "little flying ashtray" round that looks like a wadcutter from a distance but is a full-caliber JHP tucked inside the too-big-for-smokeless-powder .38 Special case. I have a large pile of both plated and lead WCs set for about 750fps out of 6" gun that I'd never seriously consider for CCW. An Underwood-style hard cast WC at +P pressures (150gr @ 1000fps or so)? Sure...but let's not pretend these two have much in common besides the bullet shape. That 250fps bump nearly doubles the muzzle energy.

 

[Drm50]

If I wanted SD type wadcutter loads, I would first up the hardness of my bullet alloy. Use a 158gr + or - bullet and crank velocity towards 1000fps.
I don’t shoot very many people a week, can’t abide the paper work but I think a lot of these horror stories about bullets failing to stop the perp are due to marginal hits. You put a bullet into center of mass and bad guy is going to look for somebody else to victimize.

 

[STCM(SW)]

Any caliber round to the CNS will stop any one...

 

[alwslate]

There was a time several years ago now that I fired a LOT of bullets into tough materials like landscape timbers, yellow pine construction lumber and cedar mail box posts to test penetration. The results were what you might expect, the more blunt the bullet, the more shallow the penetration. Cast RN or FMJ RN penetrate deeper than cast SWCs and full WCs don't penetrate very well period. I don't think the test media makes any difference. Take air for example. RN bullets retain velocity better than SWCs and WCs shed velocity very quickly. Target WCs from a snubby are slow and soft and unlikely to penetrate very deep in anything. Better than nothing but a poor choice when you can simply use something else. The RN .38 spl is often disparaged as a SD round but has an advantage over the SWC or WC. The RN bullet will always yaw to some extent in soft tissue, give deep penetration and make a larger wound channel than the
diameter.

 

[DR505]

I recall back in the mid 1970's a South Holland, IL, police officer was hit by a 9mm FMJ. No vest on the cop, but he was lucky...the bullet hit a fold in his leather duty jacket right at a fold, so it had to go through 3x the leather and lining. It was stopped in the 3rd layer. Cop returned fire with his Model 66 and ended the attack.

Another cop, about the same time in Calumet City, IL, took a small caliber round to the chest, maybe a .25 or .32 auto, that hit his Zippo lighter in his left breast pocket, stopping the round. It was a contact shot, so the cop grabbed the guy's hand and punched him unconscious. Again, these were the days prior to ballistic vests being common.

 

[Sgt. Buzzard]

Penetration, like velocity and energy seems to be the one measurement that all the “tests” talk about.

If the FBI wants 12” they must have tested and measured it for the outcome they want.

99% of what I see on Youtube “experts” is anecdotal and hypothetical.

A 380 round over-penetrating is not something I’m going to be thinking about if I have to defend myself and pull the trigger against an attacker.

“The adult male upper torso contains 51 bones: 26 vertebrae, 24 ribs, and the sternum. The 26 vertebrae are comprised of 7 cervical, 12 thoracic, and 5 lumbar vertebrae, plus the sacrum and coccyx.”

An adult male has 64 bones in their arms, with 32 bones in each arm. Add the 27 bones in the male adult hand, and ANY one of those bones may deflect or prevent a 380 Auto round from reaching one of the 5 vital organs.

I know it's "anecdotal " but I have personally zipped up the bodybag of a overly large adult male who had been wearing a heavy wool winter coat and vest. He had been shot accidentally in a drive by shooting from just under 100' away by a .25 ACP. One round into a well protected heart.

"Do you feel lucky"