What makes a modern pistol “better”?

"New" is simply better to many. They don't care if something is really an improvement over an older product or even a step backward. "New" is everything to these folks and they won't investigate past a cursory YouDupe video by an "expert" with no worthy credentials.
 
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Realistically, if striker fired 9mm's such as Glock, SIG, Taurus G3, S&W SW series, etc., had been available in 1935, there could have been some changed history along the way.... Easy to manufacture, easy to maintain, higher capacity and relatively inexpensive to make compared to an all milled and fitted steel handgun....Magazines as well.

The problem is that the entire design, ( simple and practical as it is), had not been conceived yet....More importantly, the polymer used in today's frames and magazines is infinitely better than anything that was available in the 1940's....Bakelite was brand new and was frankly not very good.
 
Realistically, if striker fired 9mm's such as Glock, SIG, Taurus G3, S&W SW series, etc., had been available in 1935, there could have been some changed history along the way.... Easy to manufacture, easy to maintain, higher capacity and relatively inexpensive to make compared to an all milled and fitted steel handgun....Magazines as well.

The problem is that the entire design, ( simple and practical as it is), had not been conceived yet....More importantly, the polymer used in today's frames and magazines is infinitely better than anything that was available in the 1940's....Bakelite was brand new and was frankly not very good.

It might have not been very “good” but keep in mind Bakelite was one of the earliest true polymers made.
 
It might have not been very “good” but keep in mind Bakelite was one of the earliest true polymers made.
Correct, and I as I pointed out a "not very good" polymer...Brittle, non flexible, ages quickly, etc.

Polymers like the Glock frames are space age in longevity compared to bakelite....If a Glock frame or magazine had been attempted to be made out of Bakelite, they would have shattered in the cold at the Battle of the Bulge.

The modern striker fired pistol is akin to something John Browning would have came up with if the material had been around at the time.
 
I've said it before and I'll say it whenever the subject is raised, I do not subscribe to the belief that there exists an ideal, one-size-fits-all firearm for self-defense, and as such the pursuit of such is a fool's errand because for as many folks might swear by the ergonomics of a particular firearm, there will always be those who just don't fit the mold, and for them the so-called ergonomics only serve to make it less viable.

I myself have frequently found myself on the wrong side of ergonomics, from car seats to pistol grips, so when I hear about how great the ergonomics are on anything, I'm more apt to avoid it like the plague out of the aforementioned experiences of finding these ergonomic designs just don't fit me personally.

As far as fit goes, I think that modularity is key. Manufacturers should shot trying to find a one-size-fits-all grip angle and instead focus on designing a bunch of different grip inserts to suit a wider range of people with all different sizes of hands.

I think that one of the better designed firearms in this regard is the AR-15. Not only do modern iterations come standard with 6-position adjustable stocks, but there exists a plethora of aftermarket accessories/peripherals which the end user can make use of to tailor their rifle, carbine, or pistol to their specific needs, personal preferences, and to fit them well.
MODULARITY…This is why I like my new S&W M&P 2.0 SUBCOMPACT
The grip inserts allow me to get the best grip for my hand , Choice of manual safety allows me to duplicate my 1911 experience plus I like that I can rack the slide with the safety on . An additional safety feature IMHO.
The pistol accepts the various M&P capacity magazines. ,
The Apex trigger I had had my gunsmith install makes the trigger very close to my 1911s. And it is extremely reliable..
I like this pistol …
IMG_0462.jpeg
 
Guess age influences comments as I would rather have any S&W made after 1950 to 1990s than any of these “ new” pistols. For semi autos the 1911, BHP and Colt, High Standard , S&W, and Ruger 22s
 
I think a lot of us are simply saying, "If we try to think of the ways that a modern pistol could be considered better than an older pistol, what would those ways be?"

Modularity is a good one. (Mine were firepower and reliability.)

In terms of aesthetics and workmanship, quality, I think most of us would say the older classics are better. As objects to admire, surely there is no comparison.
 
I think a lot of us are simply saying, "If we try to think of the ways that a modern pistol could be considered better than an older pistol, what would those ways be?"

Modularity is a good one. (Mine were firepower and reliability.)

In terms of aesthetics and workmanship, quality, I think most of us would say the older classics are better. As objects to admire, surely there is no comparison.
Rational thinking has nothing to do with this. ;)
 
MODULARITY…This is why I like my new S&W M&P 2.0 SUBCOMPACT
The grip inserts allow me to get the best grip for my hand , Choice of manual safety allows me to duplicate my 1911 experience plus I like that I can rack the slide with the safety on . An additional safety feature IMHO.
The pistol accepts the various M&P capacity magazines. ,
The Apex trigger I had had my gunsmith install makes the trigger very close to my 1911s. And it is extremely reliable..
I like this pistol …
View attachment 767915
Is the point I am getting from your post that your "new" pistol is better because it can replicate the feel and action of your "old" one?...:unsure:
 
The “best” 9mm handgun discussion got me thinking we should have shooters define what makes newer pistols better than more traditional designs with long histories of successful service. What criteria must be considered?

1) Advances in design?

There have certainly been some watershed moments in pistol design:

- The Luger in its 1901, 1902, 1906, and 1908 forms along with the 9mm Luger round were arguably the first truly practical and effective semi auto military pistol and cartridge.

The pistols ran like well oiled sewing machines but still lacked practicality. The cartridge itself was fine by military standards but hasn’t really come into its own until the 21st and the effectiveness of modern hollow points.

- The 1911 introduced a combination of features that have made it a practical combat, defensive, competition and plinking handgun. And have kept it popular for 113 years.

- The Walther PP in 1929, became the first practical DA/SA self defense pistol, and is still produced in its PPK (1931) and PPK/S (1968) versions. The DA trigger in a pistol was revolutionary for self defense purposes and the PP was a standard police pistol in many European countries for over 50 years.

- The Browning Hi Power in 1935 became the first successful double stack, high capacity magazine pistol. It was in many respects a refinement of the 1911 design, adding things it needed and deleting things it didn’t. Like the 1911 it is one of the most successful designs in history, and is still in production by multiple manufacturers.

- The Wonder Nines beginning with the HK VP70 in 1970 and the S&W Model 59 in 1971. The CZ-75 in 1975 and the Beretta 92 in 1976 are arguably the longest lasting and most successful of the original wonder nine pistols. Both are still produced and still have a loyal following. The Luger, 1911, PP, and Hi Power were all by themselves revolutionary. The Wonder Nines just combined the various positive attributes of each into a single handgun.

- The Glock 17 introduced in 1982 was certainly innovative. It has spawned legions of striker fired pistols that tie their safety devices to the trigger, and have trigger pulls somewhere in between long, heavy DA triggers and short, light SA triggers. The Glock was designed as a military handgun, but whether used in military service or police service it was a response to a need for simple operation and limited training. The Glock has certainly become popular due to its widespread law enforcement use, and shooters in the US like to use what law enforcement agencies use, even if the needs and specific purposes are apples to oranges comparisons.


2) Purpose?

Purpose often gets lost in the discussion. For example, many shooters looking for a concealed carry pistol are often influenced by the duty pistols law enforcement officers carry and continue to persist with the idea that it should offer high magazine capacity, even though that capacity is almost never required in an armed citizen self defense shoot - let alone the two spare magazines some of those folks insist on carrying.

Striker fired pistols like the Glock are also popular for concealed carry. That’s the case even though a design that ties all the safeties to the trigger and was intended for use in an OWB duty holster is a poor choice for IWB carry, unless it’s used in conjunction with a very carefully thought out and designed holster.


3) Fit

This one is glossed over all the time. Shooters will often choose a handgun because of authoritarian based arguments. Someone famous or someone they respect will says a particular handgun is “the best” and will buy it, even though it might not be the best fit for either their needs or their hands.

For example the Sig P365 series pistols are very popular concealed carry handguns and are arguably the best selling defensive handguns sold in the US currently. Yet none of them fit my hand properly. If I place my hand on the pistol properly and draw it the front sight will be hidden behind the left rear sight ear every time. I have to adjust my grip or move my wrist to align the sights every single time.

A properly fitting pistol will come up into your line of sight with the sights aligned or nearly aligned naturally. Over time and with some muscle memory those sights will be aligned near perfectly and sight alignment then takes care of itself learning you with jus the task of placing the front sight on target and completing the trigger pull without disturbing those sights.

Fit is far more important than brand or model number, but it’s something way too few shooters consider. And they throw lead all over and/or around the target because of it, especially under stress.

——-

In individual terms “best” will come down to your needs and intended use (which may well be shaped by, early on, authoritarian arguments, and as you mature and gain experience by a shooter by observation, experience, logic, and even philosophy. Fit also matters, and when shooting under extreme stress is arguably the single most important factor in getting rapid hits on target, although some shooters may never realize it.

In terms of a general issue pistol, those factors have to be met as well. The needs and intended use will be based on policy decisions. But for general issue the pistol has to be at least an acceptable fit for a wide range of hand sizes and proportions.

The 1911 and Hi Power both met that fit requirement really well as did the CZ-75 and the S&W 39. The Beretta 92 was a failure in that regard, and the Glock 17 was less than ideal.

Your thoughts?
That's an awfully long trip around the barn to simply say, "I don't like modern pistols."
 
It has three safety features.... So there is that. and I would disagree on being a retrograde, the simplicity of a Glock and the number of parts is leap years ahead of older pistols, even the 1911's.
Simplicity,
reliability.
capacity.
accuracy.

One of the finest magazine every designed for a handgun.

100 years from now, a Revolver and a Glock will be dug up and the Revolver will be rusted inoperable, and the Glock will still work.
If someone should dig me up in a 100 years, they'll find a revolver that I wanted to accompany me in the happy hunting grounds awaiting me on the other side (along with a bolt-action rifle, a shotgun, and a flyrod). They definitely won't find a Glock!
 
Realistically, if striker fired 9mm's such as Glock, SIG, Taurus G3, S&W SW series, etc., had been available in 1935, there could have been some changed history along the way.... Easy to manufacture, easy to maintain, higher capacity and relatively inexpensive to make compared to an all milled and fitted steel handgun....Magazines as well.

The problem is that the entire design, ( simple and practical as it is), had not been conceived yet....More importantly, the polymer used in today's frames and magazines is infinitely better than anything that was available in the 1940's....Bakelite was brand new and was frankly not very good.
Depending on your perspective...simple and cheaper to make striker guns offer nothing over traditional double/single action semiautos and the latter are much safer. They are also at least as accurate as the striker guns and just as reliable. As for huge magazine capacities, some may run out of ammo in imaginary Internet gunfights against hordes of imaginary bad guys. Also, the older guns also have looks that the striker guns don't.

Just some things to consider; not really trying to make converts out of the striker gun crowd.
 
It has three safety features.... So there is that. and I would disagree on being a retrograde, the simplicity of a Glock and the number of parts is leap years ahead of older pistols, even the 1911's.
Simplicity,
reliability.
capacity.
accuracy.

One of the finest magazine every designed for a handgun.

100 years from now, a Revolver and a Glock will be dug up and the Revolver will be rusted inoperable, and the Glock will still work.
"100 years from now, a Revolver and a Glock will be dug up and the Revolver will be rusted inoperable, and the Glock will still work."
Since I don't plan on burying any firearms and coming back in 100 years to dig them back up, how is that important to me today? Besides that, your quoted statement is a theory...I have a 100 year old 1911, and 1917 revolver, that still work just fine; That is a fact.

The greatest thing about the Glock is that it is cheap; cheap to build and cheap to look at; it does nothing that older firearms cant do.
 
So what handgun is substantially more reliable or has substantially more firepower than the Hi Power?
Probably the best answer to that is that the Browning HP is the exception that proves the rule. ;)

----

But, to contest the point, I think the original BHP had a 13 round mag, so figure + 1 = 14 round capacity Nowadays 17 + 1 in a flush fit configuration is pretty common.

I also think modern pistols require less frequent cleaning and lubrication to be reliable, hence all the guys bragging on hardly ever, or never, cleaning their guns.
 
Probably the best answer to that is that the Browning HP is the exception that proves the rule. ;)

----

But, to contest the point, I think the original BHP had a 13 round mag, so figure + 1 = 14 round capacity Nowadays 17 + 1 in a flush fit configuration is pretty common.

I also think modern pistols require less frequent cleaning and lubrication to be reliable, hence all the guys bragging on hardly ever, or never, cleaning their guns.
I've seen no difference in cleaning and lubing guns that were built five years ago or fifty years ago.
 
It has three safety features.... So there is that. and I would disagree on being a retrograde, the simplicity of a Glock and the number of parts is leap years ahead of older pistols, even the 1911's.
Simplicity,
reliability.
capacity.
accuracy.

One of the finest magazine every designed for a handgun.

100 years from now, a Revolver and a Glock will be dug up and the Revolver will be rusted inoperable, and the Glock will still work.
For the record most of my handguns are revolvers and I really like leather holsters. I am not a Glock fan boy and don't hang out on the Glock forum or try the latest Glock accessory. I am 71 and bought a number of those wonderful Colt 1911s from the 1970s. Half of these pistols needed gun smithing to even function sort of reliably. I swore off autoloaders for three decades and then somebody talked me into a Glock. Amazingly, the gun worked right out of the box. I didn't have to wipe it down every night. I own and work on a farm. Those of you who have bushhogged a farm road know how much crud is thrown about. You, the tractor and your sidearm are literally covered in dust and small pieces of plant material. Guess what, the Glock always fires. I have washed the gun and the kydex holster off with a garden hose at the end of the day. I will dry and oil the Glock after doing this. It has some finish wear but no rust. I love old guns and appreciate their craftsmanship but if needing something for hard use, give me something like a Glock or S&W Shield any day.
 
Depending on your perspective...simple and cheaper to make striker guns offer nothing over traditional double/single action semiautos and the latter are much safer. They are also at least as accurate as the striker guns and just as reliable. As for huge magazine capacities, some may run out of ammo in imaginary Internet gunfights against hordes of imaginary bad guys. Also, the older guns also have looks that the striker guns don't.

Just some things to consider; not really trying to make converts out of the striker gun crowd.
I am talking about history, warfare and "guns in the hands of shooters", from the early 30's till maybe 20 years ago....Not collectables, dustables and curios like the 1911, (which I still like)...There is a LOT of machining that goes into a Browning HP and twice that in a luger...That's the very reason Germany went with the P38 and the US military went with the 03A3 instead of the M1903..Simplicity and easier and quicker to make.

Simplicity of manufacture/cost, weight, reliability and magazine capacity were never a thing in WW2, (save the expensive to make HP). Modern polymers are amazing and as technologically unavailable in WW2 as the atom bomb....Nothing like that was available in WW2, nor was the design itself.
 
For the record most of my handguns are revolvers and I really like leather holsters. I am not a Glock fan boy and don't hang out on the Glock forum or try the latest Glock accessory. I am 71 and bought a number of those wonderful Colt 1911s from the 1970s. Half of these pistols needed gun smithing to even function sort of reliably. I swore off autoloaders for three decades and then somebody talked me into a Glock. Amazingly, the gun worked right out of the box. I didn't have to wipe it down every night. I own and work on a farm. Those of you who have bushhogged a farm road know how much crud is thrown about. You, the tractor and your sidearm are literally covered in dust and small pieces of plant material. Guess what, the Glock always fires. I have washed the gun and the kydex holster off with a garden hose at the end of the day. I will dry and oil the Glock after doing this. It has some finish wear but no rust. I love old guns and appreciate their craftsmanship but if needing something for hard use, give me something like a Glock or S&W Shield any day.
This guys gets it.
 
"100 years from now, a Revolver and a Glock will be dug up and the Revolver will be rusted inoperable, and the Glock will still work."
Since I don't plan on burying any firearms and coming back in 100 years to dig them back up, how is that important to me today? Besides that, your quoted statement is a theory...I have a 100 year old 1911, and 1917 revolver, that still work just fine; That is a fact.

The greatest thing about the Glock is that it is cheap; cheap to build and cheap to look at; it does nothing that older firearms cant do.
And this guy is way too literal.... :cool:
 

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