38 wadcutters

[USSR]

It threw me off when you said "wrinkling", but then when you said "The wrinkles were halfway and below the bullet", and I realized what is going on. Your cases are buckling because your cases are not designed to have a bullet seated that deeply in the case. .38 Special case have an optimal thickness at the top for seating a bullet, but as the brass goes further towards the base, the brass thickens to handle the pressure, and the subsequent reduced internal dimensions is what is causing your buckling. Years ago, Winchester, Remington and Federal made and sold a ton of wadcutter ammo. They made special brass cases for this ammo that had a uniform case thickness way down into the case. Winchester and Remington wadcutter cases are identified by having 2 cannelures, one at about halfway down the case, and the second on just above it. Federal wadcutter cases are a bit harder to identify, as they only have a single cannelure located about 3/8" below the top of the case instead of the 1/8" below the top of the case used on their regular ammo. I stocked up with once-fired wadcutter cases years ago. PMC cases are one of the worst for loading wadcutters, so I would suggest you look around for some American made cases. Hope this has been of some help.

Don

 

[ggibson511960]

Loading .38 Spcl target loads with HBWC's is the most forgiving handloading task around. Not much can go wrong. Many steps can be done less than optimally, but one, bullet seating and case mouth "crimping", can go wrong. Think of "crimping" as "un-flaring". I never roll crimp target loads. Case neck tension alone is sufficient to prevent recoil induced backing out in light target loads. Crimp only enough to remove the case mouth flare. Roll crimp dies that come with standard die sets are more dependent on uniform case length than taper crimp dies. Back out the bullet seating stem, set the crimp die on an empty case with just enough crimp to remove mouth flare, lock the die ring, set the seating stem and load away. If you want to be super fussy seat and crimp in separate passes, but that means always backing away the crimp die for seating.

 

[Phenix]

Hello everyone!

I was just making some 38 special 148gr wadcutters yesterday and noticed I was wrinkling a few cases. At first, I wrinkled 3 cases out of 50. But then I made 50 more and wrinkled a few more cases than I wanted . Maybe 8 or so.

I tried readjusting my dies. Making sure at first, I wasn't adding too much of a crimp. That didn't seem to work. Then tried to not add as much height??
Book states they should be at 1.160". I left some at 1.180". In my experience, not too far off. Using 3.2g of w231 on a powder coated 148gr.

It's a great load! But my arms got a workout yesterday removing my decapper from my sizer! Next time if I do this, I'll just separate the pile of wrinkled cases and run em all at once.
I made 150 yesterday, so I'm tired today. Maybe I'll rest.

I didn't notice I had this problem when using Barry's 148gr DEWC. This is something that just started happening when I switched to the 148gr powder coated ones. .358" dia. Also.

Should I just get used to sizing them after?! Or am I missing something??
What do you all think?

Lou

Using a taper crimp makes case length less critical.

 

[TJm15.38]

A couple of years ago, I bought four boxes of Fiocchi .38 Wadcutters. Although the ammo is pricey, I have found the brass to be excellent for reloading the same type bullet. These are reloaded with Winchester primers, Hornady 148 Grain HBWC over 3.0 grains of Winchester 231.

 

[27 Man]

I don't think it hurts to leave them out a little. The Missouri Bullets I use have a groove near the top and I seat them there. Any difference in accuracy could be easily tested. I don't notice any, but then I'm not that great of a pistol shot.

View attachment 776682

I have a supply of these same bullets and have read accounts where one got stuck in the bore of the revolver when they were loaded with the same powder charge as straight lead. I currently load 2.7 BE in my lead wadcutters. How much should I increase the charge to avoid that issue?

 

[Tabby Lynn]

Hello everyone!

I was just making some 38 special 148gr wadcutters yesterday and noticed I was wrinkling a few cases. At first, I wrinkled 3 cases out of 50. But then I made 50 more and wrinkled a few more cases than I wanted . Maybe 8 or so.

I tried readjusting my dies. Making sure at first, I wasn't adding too much of a crimp. That didn't seem to work. Then tried to not add as much height??
Book states they should be at 1.160". I left some at 1.180". In my experience, not too far off. Using 3.2g of w231 on a powder coated 148gr.

It's a great load! But my arms got a workout yesterday removing my decapper from my sizer! Next time if I do this, I'll just separate the pile of wrinkled cases and run em all at once.
I made 150 yesterday, so I'm tired today. Maybe I'll rest.

I didn't notice I had this problem when using Barry's 148gr DEWC. This is something that just started happening when I switched to the 148gr powder coated ones. .358" dia. Also.

Should I just get used to sizing them after?! Or am I missing something??
What do you all think?

Lou

Slight wrinkling of 38/357 cases is not uncommon and doesn't appear to affect the accuracy at all. I will however say that I notice it more with 148 gr wadcutters than I do with 158 gr semi wad cutters. So, bottom line, as long as they fit into the cylinder it shouldn't really be an issue.

 

[Lou_the_welder]

It threw me off when you said "wrinkling", but then when you said "The wrinkles were halfway and below the bullet", and I realized what is going on. Your cases are buckling because your cases are not designed to have a bullet seated that deeply in the case. .38 Special case have an optimal thickness at the top for seating a bullet, but as the brass goes further towards the base, the brass thickens to handle the pressure, and the subsequent reduced internal dimensions is what is causing your buckling. Years ago, Winchester, Remington and Federal made and sold a ton of wadcutter ammo. They made special brass cases for this ammo that had a uniform case thickness way down into the case. Winchester and Remington wadcutter cases are identified by having 2 cannelures, one at about halfway down the case, and the second on just above it. Federal wadcutter cases are a bit harder to identify, as they only have a single cannelure located about 3/8" below the top of the case instead of the 1/8" below the top of the case used on their regular ammo. I stocked up with once-fired wadcutter cases years ago. PMC cases are one of the worst for loading wadcutters, so I would suggest you look around for some American made cases. Hope this has been of some help.

Don

Last night , I made 50 rounds. They chamber perfectly now. And drop out of the chambers on gravity, so the dies are now perfect.
However, I did wrinkle/ case buckle 3 Aguila cases, as well as previously doing that to some pmc I had.
You are absolutely right. Those cases are junk for wadcutters.
The majority starline cases and Winchester ones I used came out dimensionally perfect. So, I'll weed out those Aguila and pmc cases when I see em.

Someone mentioned previously having trouble with those pmc cases. I believe it.

All the tips given have helped make near perfect rounds that will chamber perfectly .

Thank you all.

Lou

 

[Phenix]

I have a supply of these same bullets and have read accounts where one got stuck in the bore of the revolver when they were loaded with the same powder charge as straight lead. I currently load 2.7 BE in my lead wadcutters. How much should I increase the charge to avoid that issue?

Be aware that given the same powder charge, seating a bullet farther out will result in lower pressures than seating the bullet deeper.
I personally load mine both ways with some seated with the nose flush with the case mouth, and some with the nose about 1/8” or a little more out.
HBWC and plain double-ended wadcutter loads are my favorites in the .38 Special.
They work well in .357 Magnum rifles too.

 

[docbrazos]

Sounds to me like you are seating and crimping at the same time. And if that's the case, that's the problem. All the cases aren't the same length! Crimping separately should solve you problem .

 

[rwsmith]

I have a supply of these same bullets and have read accounts where one got stuck in the bore of the revolver when they were loaded with the same powder charge as straight lead. I currently load 2.7 BE in my lead wadcutters. How much should I increase the charge to avoid that issue?

That I don't understand. I've shot light and heavy out of .38 and .357 cases and never stuck one anywhere except where they were supposed to go. There are other problems that would cause a stuck bullet and I suspect a too low or missing powder charge and the primer gave enough power to stick the bullet in the barrel. The 2.7 gr of Bullseye is standard and a well known load. You aren't stuck on it. You want the most accurate load so if you need to add a few tenths of a grain, try it.

 

[Tabby Lynn]

I don't think it hurts to leave them out a little. The Missouri Bullets I use have a groove near the top and I seat them there. Any difference in accuracy could be easily tested. I don't notice any, but then I'm not that great of a pistol shot.

View attachment 776682

I don't think it hurts to leave them out a little. The Missouri Bullets I use have a groove near the top and I seat them there. Any difference in accuracy could be easily tested. I don't notice any, but then I'm not that great of a pistol shot.

View attachment 776682

I trim all the cases to the same length then, when there is a groove at the top of the wadcutter I adjust the seating die to put a light roll crimp into the groove.

 

[budhall]

OK, here's a heads-up that may not have been mentioned here... If you're loading HBWC into GI .38 Special brass, specifically from the common M41 Ball or the USAF PGU-12B loads, that brass tapers much thicker and will constantly bulge(wrinkle?) about half way down, when loading HBWCs.. The contracts for those loads specify thinker brass, thus the longer skirt on HBWCs will bulge. Even some DEWC might do the same. So check your head stamps!!

 

[Forrest r]

Couldn't even begin to count how many 1000's of reloads I did using M41 ball brass (used to buy 30cal ammo cans full of the stuff (1x fired) for $3 a ammo can.

No wrinkles or bulged ammo is not a good thing or "common". Those are signs of using the wrong expanding die. I've posted about this before on this website. Most reloading dies are designed to be use jacketed bullets. Jacketed bullets are typically smaller in diameter and shorter bodied then their lead/coated counterparts.

You want an expander die & more specifically the expander button to be designed for the longer/larger diameter lead/coated bullets. Lyman makes a m-die (lee came out with their version this year) for the lead/coated bullets.

A lyman m-die button next to a factory lee expander button. Both are for the 45acp. You can clearly see the high water mark on the lee button left by the case mouth of the brass (line in the center). The lyman button goes twice as deep into the 45acp cases.

3 different home cast/coated bullets (.452") loaded in range brass (picked up in the grass) made using the lyman m-die. Interestingly enough the reload on the far left has extreme wear marks from someone sizing the "bulge" out of it repeatedly.

A factory lee 9mm expander button next to a custom expander button I made for seating lead/coated bullets in 9mm cases.

I cast and coat bullets for the 9mm's. I size them to .358" so I can use them in the 9mm's, 38spl's & 357mags. 2 different bullets I cast/coat. Both are sized to .358" and the red bullet is 1/10th of an inch longer than the green bullet. That red bullet is seated 2/3's the way into the case and there's no bulge. That bullet is a lyman 35870 150gr hollow based fn.

Anyway use the correct expander and the brass thickness will become meaningless. No more wrinkles, buckling or bulges.

 

[taz666]

Since we've got everybody that's interested and experienced involved in this thread ... thanks Lou,
has anybody ordered their coated WC bullets at .360" diameter and loaded them in unsized 38 special brass? I've read that this was an accepted method of factory WC production (winchester et al)

This would be optional to sourcing an expander die long enough to mate with the WC overall length. I've never seen one myself.

 

[Ericbc7]

I use a uniquetek hbwc powder funnel/expander which expands cases the length of the bullet and makes seating a bit more repeatable. Annealing can make the spring back less of an issue on range brass and nickel plated brass.

 

[taz666]

Thanks for posting that Ericbc7.

https://photoescapeinc.com/product/powder-transfer-unit-powder-funnel-for-38-special-wadcutter/

 

[rockquarry]

Using a taper crimp makes case length less critical.

Me too; never had a problem and the taper crimp only needs to be slight. I've never done a side-by-side accuracy comparison of taper crimped vs. roll crimped but I would guess taper crimped rounds might have an accuracy edge. Some adhere to the "revolver cartridges should be roll crimped while semi-auto cartridges should be taper crimped, no exceptions", without questioning the reasoning. Many times that axiom is right but it's far from a firm rule and it's often worth the trouble to experiment.

 

[Eddietruett]

Here lately, i've been loading Hornady 148 grain hbwc for my Colt OMT revolver. I use the same powder charge as Lou_the_welder, but with HP-38 (same powder) different name. These Hornady wadcutters are knurled, then some sort of lube, and then dusted with mica powder. No problem with wrinkled cases. What I did notice, was there was quite a bit of difference in seating force needed to seat the wc's in different brands of cases. Some seat real easy, and some need noticably more force to seat. The case wall thickness is different in some cases. It only takes .001 thicker wall to make a .002 tighter inside diameter. I realize the expander sizes the inside of the case, but there is spring back. I seat the wc just below the case mouth. I crimp the case mouth separately, after seating the wc.
Maybe, the few cases that wrinkled on you were a little long? Maybe the seating head hit the top of the case when seating the wc? Make sure the bell in the case mouth is enough to allow the seating head to fit inside the bell. Make sure the seater head is not oversize to go inside the belled case when seating the wc. It is probably the correct size, or it would wrinkle more of your cases. If you have short cases, they will not be belled as much as the proper length cases.

One thing I’ve started doing that helps a lot is Hornady one shot on all my cases, no matter what caliber and even when using carbide dies. I put a hundred or so cases in a Tupperware tub so they are all one layer open end up. Give them a quick spray, doesn’t take much. Put the lid on and shake. Then spray again a little heavier but you still don’t need them wet. Shake again and let them sit about 4-5 minutes before loading. You won’t believe the difference especially in sizing, even with 9mm. It also makes seating easier and will not affect powder burn.

 

[686 shooter]

Couldn't even begin to count how many 1000's of reloads I did using M41 ball brass (used to buy 30cal ammo cans full of the stuff (1x fired) for $3 a ammo can.

No wrinkles or bulged ammo is not a good thing or "common". Those are signs of using the wrong expanding die. I've posted about this before on this website. Most reloading dies are designed to be use jacketed bullets. Jacketed bullets are typically smaller in diameter and shorter bodied then their lead/coated counterparts.

You want an expander die & more specifically the expander button to be designed for the longer/larger diameter lead/coated bullets. Lyman makes a m-die (lee came out with their version this year) for the lead/coated bullets.

A lyman m-die button next to a factory lee expander button. Both are for the 45acp. You can clearly see the high water mark on the lee button left by the case mouth of the brass (line in the center). The lyman button goes twice as deep into the 45acp cases.

3 different home cast/coated bullets (.452") loaded in range brass (picked up in the grass) made using the lyman m-die. Interestingly enough the reload on the far left has extreme wear marks from someone sizing the "bulge" out of it repeatedly.

A factory lee 9mm expander button next to a custom expander button I made for seating lead/coated bullets in 9mm cases.

I cast and coat bullets for the 9mm's. I size them to .358" so I can use them in the 9mm's, 38spl's & 357mags. 2 different bullets I cast/coat. Both are sized to .358" and the red bullet is 1/10th of an inch longer than the green bullet. That red bullet is seated 2/3's the way into the case and there's no bulge. That bullet is a lyman 35870 150gr hollow based fn.

Anyway use the correct expander and the brass thickness will become meaningless. No more wrinkles, buckling or bulges.

Aside from the excellent information those are some nice cast/coated bullets! You seem to have mastered the art as many factory bullets don’t look that good.

 

[gwpercle]

Last night , I made 50 rounds. They chamber perfectly now. And drop out of the chambers on gravity, so the dies are now perfect.
However, I did wrinkle/ case buckle 3 Aguila cases, as well as previously doing that to some pmc I had.
You are absolutely right. Those cases are junk for wadcutters.
The majority starline cases and Winchester ones I used came out dimensionally perfect. So, I'll weed out those Aguila and pmc cases when I see em.

Someone mentioned previously having trouble with those pmc cases. I believe it.

All the tips given have helped make near perfect rounds that will chamber perfectly .

Thank you all.

Lou

The cases that are wrinkling are probably too long for your die adjustment ... measure a few cases that don't wrinkle and trim the wrinklers to the same length as the non-wrinklers.
And remember die adjustments are good for one length case and one brand bullet ... change anything and the dies must be re-adjusted .
Using mixed brass also throws more curves into the game ... but once you have all your brass the same length ... that helps a lot .
Load Safe,
Gary