SIG P320 Discharges?

[Ματθιας]

Yes I can. If you are having trouble with my vocabulary, Google the two words for a legal definition.
And then Google conceptual semantics.

They're your words not mine. You only changed them when I gave you what you asked for, "proof".

Can you explain this?

Product Liability & Mass Torts Digest

Colwell v. Sig Sauer, Inc., No. 21-cv-1200-BKS, 2024 WL 4216047, at *1 (N.D.N.Y. Sept. 17, 2024), is another recent instance of federal courts reinforcing their role as “gatekeepers” to ensure expert…

www.winston.com

Or this:

Explain what?

 

[Ματθιας]

If you all want to carry a firearm with lots and lots of documented safety problems while being banned and withdrawn from numerous organizations for being too dangerous to risk, have at it. That's on you all.

 

[GnarlsR2]

The comic relief in this thread is very refreshing.

 

[The Last Standing Knight]

I read a joke that SIG is an acronym for Self Inflicted Gunshot wound. Humorous in a dark sort of way to be sure. However, one must take into account that since the P320 has been introduced, problems of this kind have been pretty consistant and far, far too regular in occurance.

ANY handgun that because of its design has a flaw that will cause it to discharge as has been reported is unsafe and shouldn't be carried AT ALL. All of us who tote handguns are full aware (or should be) of the risks involved in doing so and that handguns are often carried in a position where they can be hit, banged against something, dropped (yeah, "just begin" as my old plt sgt used to say). This is day to day use and the last thing anyone of us wants is for that weapon to go BANG when climbing in/out of a patrol vehicle or bumping the table in the roll call room.

There is a problem with this weapon. Period. No excuses, no reason, no nothing. It is a design flaw that SIG can't or doesn't want to fix and haven't despite their insistence. Right now, the SIG P320 is not only military standard issue but also multiple police agencies big and small. This is going to change VERY quickly. Even if the problem was successfully corrected, the pistol itself will always carry the taint of its past. That's why ANY firearm should not leave the factory without complete and through testing. This weapon obviously didn't.

Like Ian "Gun Jesus" McCullum (sic) on his channel suggested...just discontinue the weapon. FWIW when our DPS wanted to replace their SIG 357's they went to S&W M&P's...and had so many problems they scrapped that idea and went with the P320. So SIG isn't the only company to lay a big steamy one, but in S&W's case, the malfunctions were pretty much jamming although I think S&W has long corrected these issues where SIG has apparently not.

 

[Rocketmedic40]

If you all want to carry a firearm with lots and lots of documented safety problems while being banned and withdrawn from numerous organizations for being too dangerous to risk, have at it. That's on you all.

I think the real horrors are if their carry of a suspected-to-be-questionable pistol results in an injury or death to another person; i.e. a bystander. To me, Sig’s repeated blame of the holster is damning…no pistol should go off without a robust pull of the trigger, regardless of the holster quality. They should be able to tolerate everything from ghetto IWB to cheap Uncle Mikes to custom Milt Sparks or mass market Blackhawk or Safariland plastic.

 

[GnarlsR2]

I read a joke that SIG is an acronym for Self Inflicted Gunshot wound. Humorous in a dark sort of way to be sure. However, one must take into account that since the P320 has been introduced, problems of this kind have been pretty consistant and far, far too regular in occurance.

ANY handgun that because of its design has a flaw that will cause it to discharge as has been reported is unsafe and shouldn't be carried AT ALL. All of us who tote handguns are full aware (or should be) of the risks involved in doing so and that handguns are often carried in a position where they can be hit, banged against something, dropped (yeah, "just begin" as my old plt sgt used to say). This is day to day use and the last thing anyone of us wants is for that weapon to go BANG when climbing in/out of a patrol vehicle or bumping the table in the roll call room.

There is a problem with this weapon. Period. No excuses, no reason, no nothing. It is a design flaw that SIG can't or doesn't want to fix and haven't despite their insistence. Right now, the SIG P320 is not only military standard issue but also multiple police agencies big and small. This is going to change VERY quickly. Even if the problem was successfully corrected, the pistol itself will always carry the taint of its past. That's why ANY firearm should not leave the factory without complete and through testing. This weapon obviously didn't.

Like Ian "Gun Jesus" McCullum (sic) on his channel suggested...just discontinue the weapon. FWIW when our DPS wanted to replace their SIG 357's they went to S&W M&P's...and had so many problems they scrapped that idea and went with the P320. So SIG isn't the only company to lay a big steamy one, but in S&W's case, the malfunctions were pretty much jamming although I think S&W has long corrected these issues where SIG has apparently not.

"That's why ANY firearm should not leave the factory without complete and through testing."

Yes....!!! And I will gladly pay extra for that option.

 

[Ματθιας]

The comic relief in this thread is very refreshing.

True. I'm sure I'm not the only one enjoying your posts.

 

[Rocketmedic40]

Well, can I just tell the Sig defenders that it really is political? Here’s my logic:

Who lives geographically near Sig? Elizabeth Warren, who wants gun control and is friends with Barack Obama, who had the Martha’s Vineyard estate. A perfect place to abduct good loyal Republican Sig engineers to, blackmail and drug them, and force them to design a trigger that would only shoot at people with intense patriotism. Funded by Oprah and Soros, they schemed to subsume the American pistol industry from within!

Sadly, God-President Trump was too busy to catch on, and Joe Biden was in on the whole thing so he forced hundreds of thousands of patriotic Americans to buy and carry them to try and deny the supply to the illegal Clintonian armies imported specifically to strike at the moment of maximum leg weakness after the sears wore down.

Now they are about to strike!

 

[GnarlsR2]

I think the real horrors are if their carry of a suspected-to-be-questionable pistol results in an injury or death to another person; i.e. a bystander. To me, Sig’s repeated blame of the holster is damning…no pistol should go off without a robust pull of the trigger, regardless of the holster quality. They should be able to tolerate everything from ghetto IWB to cheap Uncle Mikes to custom Milt Sparks or mass market Blackhawk or Safariland plastic.

"no pistol should go off without a robust pull of the trigger, regardless of the holster quality."

Nahhh.... that's a stretch a little too far.

 

[Rocketmedic40]

"no pistol should go off without a robust pull of the trigger, regardless of the holster quality."

Nahhh.... that's a stretch a little too far.

For a service pistol? Entirely reasonable standard

 

[lightstar_actual]

 

[GnarlsR2]

For a service pistol? Entirely reasonable standard

Is 4 lbs. 11.2 ozs "robust" enough for my BG2?
Is 3 lbs. 7.52 ozs too light for "robust" on my Sig P365 Micro?

 

[Oldsalt66]

Only a Marine could misinterpret my remark - I believe in facts not opinions and assumptions. The P320 fires with a trigger pull. As a member of Sig Forum pointed out: “Incidents of spontaneous discharge have allegedly occurred WITHOUT the trigger being depressed at all; any and all tests that depress the trigger in any manner are 100% non sequitor to the allegations.”

That comment was made by myself on SIG Talk, and I repeated it here in post #533.

"BTW: in every alleged incident, it's been the claimed that the pistols discharged spontaneously with absolutely NO manipulation of the trigger; which renders every clickbaiting youtuber "test" in which trigger movement is involved to be moot and non sequitor to the actual matter under investigation."

 

[Rocketmedic40]

There is a point where the quote “my mind is made up, don’t confuse me with facts” is apropos.

Should you want to read an intellectual discussion about the P320 look at this on Sig Forum. Crayons are optional.

P320 Mega-Thread - Post all P320 design issue discussion here​

I got banned from there for pointing out that it was a bit of a PR boggle to demand people not ask about it.

 

[Rocketmedic40]

Is 4 lbs. 11.2 ozs "robust" enough for my BG2?
Is 3 lbs. 7.52 ozs too light for "robust" on my Sig P365 Micro?

Again, for a service pistol, one destined to be used by many, many people of varying degrees of caring and skill and understanding and experience, those values are likely too low for comfort. Reference the NYPD trigger problem…as poopy as heavy triggers are, they saw a massive decrease in ND rates when they made their triggers heavier.

I personally think 5# on a single action trigger is the minimum to consider for a service pistol, with 6-7# being the sweet spot and a DA 12# is totally reasonable.

 

[CaliforniaKid]

Personally, I would love to know what really happened with the Airman. Not to vindicate Sig but to understand what went wrong. How does one shoot themselves, with a holstered M18 9mm, with a manual safety, in the chest? I read he worked inside the weapons storage area. Was someone returning the firearm to storage and that's why it was pointed at the airman? If that was the case shouldn't it have been unloaded? Was it a handoff firearm that he didn't check? Another report suggests that the security forces’ airmen had removed the military-issued Safariland holster from his leg mount with the M18 semi-automatic pistol still inside, and it was then placed on a table. The handgun then fired while holstered, striking the airmen in the chest. Have you ever set a loaded firearm down on anything with the barrel pointed toward you? My BS meter is on 9.

 

[Brian Parrish]

That comment was made by myself on SIG Talk, and I repeated it here in post #533.

"BTW: in every alleged incident, it's been the claimed that the pistols discharged spontaneously with absolutely NO manipulation of the trigger; which renders every clickbaiting youtuber "test" in which trigger movement is involved to be moot and non sequitor to the actual matter under investigation."

Greetings Old Salt!

Your point, however valid, is not held to be decisive. Not sure why, but here is my thinking.

In the clickbaiting YouTuber videos which recreate and demonstrate the FBI's finding, they are indeed moving the trigger a tiny bit. Then they are bumping the slide a little bit to make it go off.

Most people will say that it should take more force to fire the weapon than this. At any rate, the point of the test was that the internal firing pin block safety did NOT protect as expected.

Best to You!
BrianD

 

[Brian Parrish]

Personally, I would love to know what really happened with the Airman. Not to vindicate Sig but to understand what went wrong. How does one shoot themselves, with a holstered M18 9mm, with a manual safety, in the chest? I read he worked inside the weapons storage area. Was someone returning the firearm to storage and that's why it was pointed at the airman? If that was the case shouldn't it have been unloaded? Was it a handoff firearm that he didn't check? Another report suggests that the security forces’ airmen had removed the military-issued Safariland holster from his leg mount with the M18 semi-automatic pistol still inside, and it was then placed on a table. The handgun then fired while holstered, striking the airmen in the chest. Have you ever set a loaded firearm down on anything with the barrel pointed toward you? My BS meter is on 9.

One thing I have learned through this incident is that the manual safety only blocks the trigger and does not stop the firing pin. This could be fixed, no?

 

[CRT2]

One thing I have learned through this incident is that the manual safety only blocks the trigger and does not stop the firing pin. This could be fixed, no?

Swartz safety?

 

[Oldsalt66]

There is a point where the quote “my mind is made up, don’t confuse me with facts” is apropos.

Should you want to read an intellectual discussion about the P320 look at this on Sig Forum. Crayons are optional.

P320 Mega-Thread - Post all P320 design issue discussion here​

Not on "Sig Forum"; it's on SIG Talk.