SIG P320 Discharges?

[Oldsalt66]

The comic relief in this thread is very refreshing.

Indeed.

Someone has already turned that goofy faced "Screw in Trigger Mechanism Guy" into a meme.

 

[Oldsalt66]

Greetings Old Salt!

Your point, however valid, is not held to be decisive. Not sure why, but here is my thinking.

In the clickbaiting YouTuber videos which recreate and demonstrate the FBI's finding, they are indeed moving the trigger a tiny bit. Then they are bumping the slide a little bit to make it go off.

Most people will say that it should take more force to fire the weapon than this. At any rate, the point of the test was that the internal firing pin block safety did NOT protect as expected.

Best to You!
BrianD

Hi.

It's my understanding that it was discovered that the FBI's having cut away part of the slide during its initial testing was the cause of the firing pin block failing to prevent the striker release in the original test.

The FBI then re-tested using an uncut slide which didn't adversely affect the operation of the striker block safety, and a test jig provided to them by SIG, and they could not get the striker release to reoccur which caused the FBI to declare their original test invalid and change its conclusion.

It's difficult to keep up with the latest information.

 

[The Last Standing Knight]

Hi.

It's my understanding that it was discovered that the FBI's having cut away part of the slide during its initial testing was the cause of the firing pin block failing to prevent the striker release in the original test.

The FBI then re-tested using an uncut slide which didn't adversely affect the operation of the striker block safety, and a test jig provided to them by SIG, and they could not get the striker release to reoccur which caused the FBI to declare their original test invalid and change its conclusion.

It's difficult to keep up with the latest information.

or who to believe.
In either case, I haven't changed my opinion on this pistol. At this point, it won't matter if it is fixed or not, the stigma it has will forever remain.

 

[MikeOrick]

If the M18 was an aircraft with this kind of record it would have been grounded long ago. If guns were under the regulation of the CPSC the P320 would have been recalled long ago.

Wait! There's more:

"In April 2022, a senior Airman on Tinker Air Force base in Oklahoma told investigators that his gun fired instantly when he slid the external safety into the “off” position. He wrote in a statement that “all my fingers were underneath the trigger well.” A second Airman witnessed the discharge and confirmed the soldier’s fingers were not on the trigger. The incident led to an investigation, but no conclusion was reached for what caused the gun to fire.

The Air Force, in a statement to NHPR, said investigators “found no reason to suspect the weapon was the root cause of the discharge.”

For clarification, The USAF uses the safety when loading/unloading at the clearing barrel, not in the holster while on duty.

Sig Sauer continues to defend safety of P320 following death of airman on U.S. military base

The New Hampshire-based gun manufacturer issued a lengthy statement late Tuesday defending the design and construction of its marquee pistol. The recent death of an airman on a base in Wyoming led the U.S. Air Force to suspend its use for some personnel.

www.nhpr.org

Documents detail U.S. soldiers shot by their own Sig Sauer guns; military says no reason for concern

On military bases from Virginia to the Middle East, pistols made by NH-based Sig Sauer have unintentionally fired, seriously wounding soldiers in some instances.

www.nhpr.org

 

[CRT2]

If the M18 was an aircraft with this kind of record it would have been grounded long ago. If guns were under the regulation of the CPSC the P320 would have been recalled long ago.

Wait! There's more:

"In April 2022, a senior Airman on Tinker Air Force base in Oklahoma told investigators that his gun fired instantly when he slid the external safety into the “off” position. He wrote in a statement that “all my fingers were underneath the trigger well.” A second Airman witnessed the discharge and confirmed the soldier’s fingers were not on the trigger. The incident led to an investigation, but no conclusion was reached for what caused the gun to fire.

The Air Force, in a statement to NHPR, said investigators “found no reason to suspect the weapon was the root cause of the discharge.”

For clarification, The USAF uses the safety when loading/unloading at the clearing barrel, not in the holster while on duty.

Sig Sauer continues to defend safety of P320 following death of airman on U.S. military base

The New Hampshire-based gun manufacturer issued a lengthy statement late Tuesday defending the design and construction of its marquee pistol. The recent death of an airman on a base in Wyoming led the U.S. Air Force to suspend its use for some personnel.

www.nhpr.org

Documents detail U.S. soldiers shot by their own Sig Sauer guns; military says no reason for concern

On military bases from Virginia to the Middle East, pistols made by NH-based Sig Sauer have unintentionally fired, seriously wounding soldiers in some instances.

www.nhpr.org

You mean like the UH-60 and porpoising when initially fielded and the Osprey.

 

[lihpster]

Guess I should have bought the popcorn in bulk.

 

[biku324]

You mean like the UH-60 and porpoising when initially fielded and the Osprey.

How can you tell the difference between a helo pilot and an Osprey pilot? Easy - the Osprey pilot is the one with hearing aids.

 

[LVSteve]

From the article linked above:

"...The lawsuit comes days after a U.S. Air Force Security Forces airman was killed in Wyoming while wearing his SIG Sauer M18 pistol, the military version of the P320...."

That makes more sense than the holstered gun was lying on the table when it went off and shot the airman.

Depends on whose reporting is correct.

 

[Equus]

Only a Marine could misinterpret my remark - I believe in facts not opinions and assumptions. The P320 fires with a trigger pull. As a member of Sig Forum pointed out: “Incidents of spontaneous discharge have allegedly occurred WITHOUT the trigger being depressed at all; any and all tests that depress the trigger in any manner are 100% non sequitor to the allegations.”

You believe the manufacturer. And you quote an opinion from a sig forum member. Hypocrisy much?

 

[LVSteve]

The Air Force, in a statement to NHPR, said investigators “found no reason to suspect the weapon was the root cause of the discharge.”

For clarification, The USAF uses the safety when loading/unloading at the clearing barrel, not in the holster while on duty.

Sig Sauer continues to defend safety of P320 following death of airman on U.S. military base

The New Hampshire-based gun manufacturer issued a lengthy statement late Tuesday defending the design and construction of its marquee pistol. The recent death of an airman on a base in Wyoming led the U.S. Air Force to suspend its use for some personnel.

www.nhpr.org

Documents detail U.S. soldiers shot by their own Sig Sauer guns; military says no reason for concern

On military bases from Virginia to the Middle East, pistols made by NH-based Sig Sauer have unintentionally fired, seriously wounding soldiers in some instances.

www.nhpr.org

Look at the part I have highlighted. It always concerns me when I see a statement like that which assumes all there is to be discovered has been. It is an increasing failure of the human condition, the inability to recognize that you might not know everything.

I have seen some bizarre stuff in metrology and engineering over a 40+ year career. Sometimes it takes another pair of eyes to find the fault in a way that none of the “experts” would have dreamed of in their lifetime.

 

[Kanewpadle]

I read a joke that SIG is an acronym for Self Inflicted Gunshot wound. Humorous in a dark sort of way to be sure. However, one must take into account that since the P320 has been introduced, problems of this kind have been pretty consistant and far, far too regular in occurance.

ANY handgun that because of its design has a flaw that will cause it to discharge as has been reported is unsafe and shouldn't be carried AT ALL. All of us who tote handguns are full aware (or should be) of the risks involved in doing so and that handguns are often carried in a position where they can be hit, banged against something, dropped (yeah, "just begin" as my old plt sgt used to say). This is day to day use and the last thing anyone of us wants is for that weapon to go BANG when climbing in/out of a patrol vehicle or bumping the table in the roll call room.

There is a problem with this weapon. Period. No excuses, no reason, no nothing. It is a design flaw that SIG can't or doesn't want to fix and haven't despite their insistence. Right now, the SIG P320 is not only military standard issue but also multiple police agencies big and small. This is going to change VERY quickly. Even if the problem was successfully corrected, the pistol itself will always carry the taint of its past. That's why ANY firearm should not leave the factory without complete and through testing. This weapon obviously didn't.

Like Ian "Gun Jesus" McCullum (sic) on his channel suggested...just discontinue the weapon. FWIW when our DPS wanted to replace their SIG 357's they went to S&W M&P's...and had so many problems they scrapped that idea and went with the P320. So SIG isn't the only company to lay a big steamy one, but in S&W's case, the malfunctions were pretty much jamming although I think S&W has long corrected these issues where SIG has apparently not.

Hickock45 agrees.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Personally, I would love to know what really happened with the Airman. Not to vindicate Sig but to understand what went wrong. How does one shoot themselves, with a holstered M18 9mm, with a manual safety, in the chest? I read he worked inside the weapons storage area. Was someone returning the firearm to storage and that's why it was pointed at the airman? If that was the case shouldn't it have been unloaded? Was it a handoff firearm that he didn't check? Another report suggests that the security forces’ airmen had removed the military-issued Safariland holster from his leg mount with the M18 semi-automatic pistol still inside, and it was then placed on a table. The handgun then fired while holstered, striking the airmen in the chest. Have you ever set a loaded firearm down on anything with the barrel pointed toward you? My BS meter is on 9.

It’s entirely plausible.

The airman was probably single. Living in the barracks.

He comes home. Takes his gun and holster off. Sets it on the kitchen table and reaches into the fridge for something to eat.

He has a seat at the other end of the table with his plate. He bumps the table and the gun goes off. At chest level.

 

[Rocketmedic40]

Iirc the incident occurred in an MP office, not the barracks. Hardly matters though…pistol still went off, in a holster apparently.

 

[HardToHandle]

How does one shoot themselves, with a holstered M18 9mm, with a manual safety, in the chest? I read he worked inside the weapons storage area. Was someone returning the firearm to storage and that's why it was pointed at the airman? If that was the case shouldn't it have been unloaded? Was it a handoff firearm that he didn't check? Another report suggests that the security forces’ airmen had removed the military-issued Safariland holster from his leg mount with the M18 semi-automatic pistol still inside, and it was then placed on a table. The handgun then fired while holstered, striking the airmen in the chest. Have you ever set a loaded firearm down on anything with the barrel pointed toward you? My BS meter is on 9.

My understanding is the Safariland QLS kit is likely part of the system that was involved in F.E. Warren Air Force Base shooting. Pretty commonly used in various DOD settings. I have seen a few law enforcement agencies that use QLS as well.

It is common for a QLS to be used to remove a chambered weapon while still in a holster for various reasons - such as using the restroom, sitting in a narrow office chair or certain blast-resistant seats or just having lunch in a secure environment. It is common for pistol to be placed on a table or countertop at a waist-to-chest height for lunch breaks.

Curiously, one of the documented DOD uncommanded M18 discharges while holstered occurred while a U.S. Army soldier was sitting in a desk type chair in a TOC in Jordan. Such as in that case, known uncommanded discharges might be a good reason for an educated Security Forces Sergeant to remove a holstered M18 before sitting in an office type chair for a lunch break or typing a report. The M18 has a history of going off whilst seated and in lunch rooms.

The Safariland QLS Fork system has been on the market roughly 20 years. I first began using around 2008-09 if I recall correctly. Various use cases are explained above, but the QLS system acts as a stand-off spacer when wearing an external ballistic vest. Also is often seen as safer when you are removing/storing weapons to enter into a jail or similar setting. https://inside.safariland.com/education/quick-locking-system-qls/

Example of the M18 kit reportedly used widely in the U.S. Air Force. https://www.quanticotactical.com/product/safariland-m18-mhhaf-kit/

 

[RebCop]

I guess his test might apply to construction workers armed with wood screws and drills who are engaged in a terrible fight against an angry P320 pistol. Simple solution to all of this nonsense is to buy another trusted firearms brand.

Most security holsters will move the trigger that far and that is what he was demonstrating.

 

[CRT2]

You believe the manufacturer. And you quote an opinion from an sig forum member. Hypocrisy much?

No, I believe all the individuals that have performed valid/reliable testing like Gray Guns and the revised FBI test. Over 3,000,000 P320 sold to military, law enforcement and to the public. As to quoting a forum members opinion, your dislike of Sig Sauer and the P320 is totally based on opinion. You may now answer your own question!

 

[Oldsalt66]

Here's what the Air Force is actually doing in response to the accident:

"Air Force Conducting Service-Wide Inspections of Sig Sauer M18 Pistol After Airman's Death"

Air Force Conducting Service-Wide Inspections of Sig Sauer M18 Pistol After Airman's Death

The entire Air Force is doing a service-wide inspection of the M18 handgun after a Security Forces airman suddenly died last month, adding more scrutiny to Sig Sauer's controversial product.

www.military.com

 

[Shooter308]

I’m an old Nam vet with two hearts and never had indoctrination about triggers . We had safeties . I did watch an M60 gunner put his foot over a paddy dyke and his 1911 had an uncommented discharge . Our 1911s were in use since ww2 . I have several firearms with trigger safeties , but prefer double single ie Baretta px4 . My range SIG is a p210 . 5th marines , I Corps 69/70 .

I am 68 and a NRA Instructor for Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun and CCW for as long as I can remember one of the four basic rules in gun safety don't put your finger on the trigger until ready to shoot. Same goes for any of the action sports like USPSA, IDPA, Action Steel and Steel Challenge finger out of the trigger guard while reloading, movement any remedial action.

 

[Tpsfoto]

As of today this is our gun clubs response to the P320.

Our Chief Instructor, and I have discussed the ARPC response to this potential problem. AS OF TODAY, we are allowing members to decide whether or not to continue using their P320s at the range. Disciplines will make determinations according to their governing bodies. The decision and liability for using a P320, or any other firearm, at ARPC is completely on you. You are responsible for the decisions you make. We will monitor this issue and will modify our position accordingly.

Executive Director

Well thought out I think.

I own a Sig P320 compact, with the upgrades a 2020 build, my gun club about 300 people with a board of directors sent out an email that says P320 will not be eligible for our handgun competitions
Also the range i belong to Boulder City Rifle and pistol in Nevada has banned the use of the gun…..i have other choices to use….

 

[2muchHumidity]

"Sometimes it takes another pair of eyes to find the fault in a way that none of the “experts” would have dreamed of in their lifetime."

Very true. With 37 years in engineering with DOD contractor and commercial companies, I've seen how serious bugs are sometimes completely missed during development, peer review and QA acceptance testing. Only to be discovered when an outsider with no product knowledge or involvement did something no insider saw as a legitimate action, or ever expected.

I don't have a clue about the core facts of the Sig factory or FBI testing, but I am familiar with CYA processes on projects where careers and tens or hundreds of millions of dollars are at stake. Reports that FBI re-test passed using a SIG provided jig fits right in with some of the things I've seen over the years.