Hi guys, I wanted to get some expert advice on here. I've got a guy asking about a holster for a 457. I need to find a holster mold for it (read: a training blue gun). Unfortunately none exist for that specific model. But I know that there's a lot of holster compatibility between various S&W 2nd and 3rd gen auto models. From the research I've done, I've come to the following conclusions, but I want to get some expert opinion from you guys to make sure they're right.

1) The 457 and the 4516 as far as holsters go might as well be the same size/shape gun, the main difference being ambi safety on the 4516. I'm fairly sure this is correct, but still would like some confirmation.

Now that doesn't actually solve my problem, as I can't get a 4516 mold either. But that leads to the second conclusion...this one I'm not nearly as sure of:

2) The 4516 seems to be literally just be a 4506 with 1-1/4" of barrel/slide chopped off, and some length of the grip chopped off. Otherwise the slide width/height/shape and trigger guard sizes, placement, etc etc seem completely the same. I can get a 4506 mold, and I can chop 1-1/4" off of it. This would seem to mean I can make myself a nice little 4516 mold via doing so (the grip length won't matter for holster making).

Of course, I'm here to be proven wrong. So if you believe I am, please tell me how wrong I am so that I'm not giving this guy false hope that I can make him a holster!

Thanks in advance.

This basic question has popped up in several threads this week. I posted - I think in the 3d gen section - that I had ordered a 4513 holster for my 457 and, other than the length, it well fits my CS9, 908 and 6906. Most of the retention is from the ejection port and trigger guard and all of those models sit in the same place in the holster. The length varriation of the slide is all forward of the chamber.

I can tell you that the slides on the CS and value line (908, 457, etc) are only slightly different from the other 3d gens. The frames on the 40 and 45 cal 3d gens are about 1/8 inch thicker than the 9mm models - I can't tell you if the slides are also correspondingly thicker, but my experience is that its not enough to worry about. If it is a problem, let me know and I'll measure the slide thickness.

I'd say get a blue gun for a 4506, 4513, 4516 or whatever you can find and go for it.

Now, I have a question for you - why does no holster maker make an IWB holster with a flat body side? Kind of like the flat side on a hybrid holster that spreads out the lump that pokes in to my hide.

Be sure and let us know what designs you have planned for the 457 - lots of them represented on this board.

Thanks, that helps a lot.

Molded pancake holsters naturally do this, as the gun is put into the holster for wet molding, both sides bulge out. I have tried to mitigate this by going as much difference as 5-6oz leather on the front and 8-9oz on the back...but it makes almost no difference. The natural process of molding leads that shape. On hybrids you melt the kydex around the gun mold on a flat surface and then attach it to a flat piece of leather, naturally leading to that shape. Neither style maker really determines that that's they way they decide to make it...it's just kind of how that particular method of building each ends up. A hybrid maker would have a hard time doing it with the bulge equal on front and back, and a custom leather maker has a hard time doing it so that the bulge is only on one side.

But there's a few things to note about the non-hybrid way like custom leather holster makers typically do:

1) It pulls in tighter. The nature of the "flaps" sticking out where the belt attachment is being halfway across the width of the holster rather than all the way to the body makes them pull in tighter. IWB it's not a big difference, since the belt is going to do this anyway. OWB the difference is big, especially on heavy guns.

2) It conceals better. It creates a more rounded surface where the bulge of the gun only prints half as much, because the bulge is half on each side of the holster, and the "flaps" on the side help round out the profile more.

3) It usually draws better. There's a natural very large sight groove. For hybrids doing this right takes a lot of prep and planning and not everyone does a great job of it (though some do, gotta give credit where it's due). I've had people switch from hybrids to my holsters solely because they always had things catching on the draw and weren't confident in the draw of their hybrids.

But like you've pointed out: it does have that 1 major drawback: half of the gun bulge is being pressed into you. This usually doesn't lead to any discomfort over short periods (though that could depend on the gun). But over long periods it can.

So it's a give and take scenario. However, it also depends on gun size and shape...if you're carrying a thin single stack then there's almost no digging. If your gun has a more rounded profile the difference is huge too...blocky guns exacerbate the problem. My 92FS ironically is very comfortable to carry long periods in the pancake leather style holsters because it's not blocky at all...even though it's a MASSIVE gun. A lot of 1911 carriers buy my style too, because it doesn't have that issue as much. On the other hand, Glock owners don't buy from me as much...probably because they've had similar comfort problems that you allude to, so they probably mostly go hybrid. So in the end there's a lot of factors that determine whether a custom pancake leather holster, or a hybrid one, is gonna be best for you.

I do have plans to one day soon try a double 8-9oz back (16-18oz total, and actually 2 sewn together pieces are actually stronger than 1 piece of the same thickness) and see if that is enough to make the difference and get a flatter back. If it does, I'd offer it as an option. That way I can maybe mitigate the body side bulge a bit and get a better mix of both worlds. But right now I'm just working hard to keep my wait time down...so that experiment will have to wait a bit.

My suggestion is to proceed with caution. Here is why. I have a 457. I have a holster for it that was made by a relatively will known company and the fit is exact. When I drop my 4506 into the 457 holster the fit is too loose. That means that a well fit holster for a 45XX might be too small for a 457. I used a caliper at similar locations on both guns and the width measurements at various points of the two guns were similar, but the shape is not.

Bill

Thanks for the explanation, I can see the problem. Anyone ever tried vacuum bagging? Form the outside piece to the gun then attach that to the flat body side after its dry. Seems like that would speed up the drying process, too.

As you say, its only a problem after several hours, but I'm looking for that 18 hour holster that doesn't constantly remind me that its there. Recently, I've seen several well known manufacturers offer models with sheepskin on the body side and I'm going to try that next.

I just took a look at your website and I'm impressed. I especially like your mag carriers - be sure to post here when you get set up with some S&W models. Hope you'll become a regular around here - there's a good group with few mall cowboys.

It could be done, but to be honest it would have the same advantages and disadvantages of the hybrids. It wouldn't retain the tight to the body/rounded profile concealment advantages/drawing advantages or anything, since it's the very fact that the bulge is on both sides and the gun centered that makes those advantages. So it would be directly competing for the same customers with the same needs, but with a more time consuming process.

So economically I think there's just a tendency that holster makers that want to make sure there's a flat back side end up making hybrids, and makers that are trying to get tighter holds and rounded concealable profiles tend to end up making pure leather pancake holsters. Those are simply the more logical ways to get to each desired outcome.

But you are right that if a leather holster could be made that kept it's tighter hold to the body and better rounded concealment/draw characteristics while being better for long term comfort, it would be big. I'd love to hit that holy grail...but it's a toughy, since what's making it have those advantages is also what's making it get uncomfortable after 8 hours (at least, for blocky guns anyway, rounded guns don't have the issue as much).

Northern, those are some fine looking holsters you are offering. I had not seen them before but did add them to my listing.

Holsters

Thanks! Every little bit helps.