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British .303 question...

P

Plunky McPlunker

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Hello and thank you.
I have a British .303 my Dad gave me. He bought it used in 1965 with 100 rounds for $27 dollars delivered.
I cleaned it up and I want to shoot it a couple times.
Do you think this is a bad idea (to shoot it I mean?)
Will .303 ammo from my local gun shop work, or do I need older ammo?
He still has 75 rounds left from the original box.
Should I sell it and buy him a nice new S&W?
I know this is a really general question, but I just wanted expert, experienced advice.
Thanks for any time you can afford me.
 
The SMLE rifle and the 303 British cartridge are a good combination. They are great fun to shoot. Any current 303 ammo will work in your rifle. The old ammo you have may have corrosive primers that can damage the bore if proper cleaning procedures aren't taken after firing. Much old military FMJ ammo was primed with primers that were corrosive, so don't think the ammo isn't any good because of that, just remember to clean it well. I love shooting my old SMLE.
 
Assuming there is nothing wrong with the gun, you certainly can shoot it.

There are two common 303s, the No.1 Mk III* and the No.4 Mk 1. The easy way to tell the difference, if they are still in the original military configuration (full stock, not cut down or sporterized), is that the No. 1 had open sights on the rear of the barrel forward of the receiver, and the No. 4 has aperture sights on the bridge or back of the receiver.

Both shoot fine, the No. 4 having a heavier barrel and being less subject to heating up and "wandering" around the target a little bit.

The ammo, maybe, is corrosive primed. If it is commercial, and made in the US, like Remington or Winchester, then it is not. But, if it is military, funny little numbers and letters on the rim, then it may be corrosive.

Not a big deal, BUT, you must clean the gun the day you shoot it with something that will kill the corrosiveness or the bore will rust. Real hot water is as easy as anything.

If the ammo may be corrosive, post that and someone will tell you how to do it. Takes only a few minutes.

Enjoy the gun. Value could be, depending on condition, from $100 up to maybe $250.

There are other models of the 303 Enfields, and if your gun is not marked No. 1 or No. 4. on the band that goes around the back of the receiver, then post whatever it says there.

Bob
 
$27? Must be a good one! A friend of mine and I bought 5 of them for 9.95 each. We were going to sell them and make a 'lot' of money. We did sell them for more than we paid; but there was the cost of gas to clean the cosmoline (we could barely tell there was a rifle under the gunk), and the clothes we ruined trying to clean 'em. Wish I would have kept one or two...
 
A nice old Enfield should not go unfired!!
What ever the model, a few rounds down range is a nice experience with one of those.
Post some pics if you can, plenty of Enfield folks here to help with ID.

The ammo cleaning info given is correct. The ammo, if Full Metal Jacket is most likely Milsurp and corrosive. Most anything sold with a surplus rifle in the 60's was milsurp ammo. Dangerous to guess if it's non-corrosive and find out otherwise the next day.

Just to be on the safe side if you're unabe to positively ID the ammo,,clean the barrel with the hot water method anyway,(some put a bit of soap in it too). It doesn't hurt anything. Dry and oil. Recheck the next day for after rust.
Wipe the breech, bolt and other metal parts down with a damp w/water patch, dry and oil also as the corrosive elements in the spent cartridge cases can leave debris around the action area too.

Actually, for 40 years I've cleaned all my militarys that I shoot with corrosive ammo including an M1 with nothing but Windex.
Never a problem. But to each his/her own method. As long as you're comforable with a method and it works,,that's what counts!

This thread made me think of my brother & I each buying a rifle at a gunshop in about 1961 or 62. Somewhere in there..
(Background check.."Did your folks say it was OK to buy these??,,,,,'Yup',,,,")
He bought a #4 Enfield for $10.99. I went big money and bought a 1893 Spanish Mauser 7x57 made by Lowe/Berlin for a couple dollars more...w/ the bayonet.
Both were like new and IIRC they threw in a few rounds of ammo.

He still has that #4 Enfield! (Marines never see any reason to get rid of a perfectly good rifle,,just don't ask him ,ever, about the M16) In fact I just gave him a box of 32rds of 303 WW2 milsurp AP ammo I came accross. (Why did they pack it in 32rd boxes sometimes?)
My Mauser is long gone.
 
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For $27 in 1965, I'm going to take a Wild Donkey Guess (family friendly, that's me all the way :D ) that it is a No. 5, Mark I, often better known as the "Jungle Carbine." These all ready look sporterized due to their lightened stock, rubber butt pad, and shorter barrel. Plus, they have a flash hider! How tactical is that!

I have seen downright ratty examples of the No. 5 at gun shows with a $499 price tag. Super nice No. 1s and No. 4s will approach that price as well. Also, there are earlier forerunners of the No. 1 that command prices off the charts. It would take a book to list what it just "might" be. First thing is to identify what you have, then we can go from there. Early No. 1s all say "Mark I", "Mark II", or "Mark III" (that was back before the Brits decided to revamp their system and call them "No. 1, Mark I", "No. 1, Mark II", etc.) No. 4s and No. 5s will have "No. 4" or "No. 5" (and a whole bunch of other stuff!) on the receiver.

Also, for the ammo, report the headstamp, (the writing on the case around the primer), and we can tell you if it's corrosive or not, and probably where/when it was made.

Speaking mainly for myself, some of us here are a little nuts over these rifles! :cool:
 
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Lots of good info out there on these fine rifles.

You can start here:
The Lee-Enfield Rifle Website

A #4 MK2 was my first and I still have it along with some others.
Hope you enjoy yours.

How 'bout some pics? :)
 
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Thanks all.
I spoke to my Dad tonight. I am going to bring it home for a good cleaning.
He bought the rifle, 100 rounds of ammo, bayonet (with a safety release for the sheath?), and some kind of really heavy wool blanket for $27 in 1963.
I am guilty of putting 25 rounds through it out of the 100 box back in 1992.
I will try to post pics of it tomorrow or so for some more advice.
 
If you really want to find out if the ammo is corrosive here is the method I have used in the past. Pull the bullet from the casing and pour out the powder, or in the case of Mil Surp 303 Brit, the Cordite. Get yourself a piece of unprimed/unpainted carbon steel, a piece about 4" x 4" is all you need. Chamber the unloaded shell (no bullet and no powder, just a live primer). Stand back about a foot from the steel plate, aim at the plate and pull the trigger. Don't tough the steel plate. Clean the rifle with windex or hot soapy water inside and out. Blow it dry with air from a compressor, oil it up and put it away. The next day check the 4" x 4" steel plate and see if you see rust where you primer shot it. If you see rust the ammo is corrosive, no rust no problem. This will tell you the method you need to use when shooting that particular ammo. Corrosive ammo is no big deal as long as you know it is corrosive and take the proper steps to clean ALL metal surfaces after shooting it. I bought 5000 rounds of corrosive FMJ 30-06, headstamped FN-50 to FN-52, a few years ago and regularly shoot the stuff through my M1's. Just use one of the above cleaning methods if it does turn out to be corrosive.

Hope this helps,

Class III
 
Plunky, if you got it from your father, hold onto it by all means.
You will have money though out your life and be able to buy many guns. Once you sell a gun that was given to you by a loved one, it's gone for good.
Shoot that gun and enjoy it. And enjoy your father.
 
Hang onto the Lee-Enfield Rifle, you will not be disappointed. Like many have already said, be sure to clean the rifle after firing older ammo. I have to laugh when people are concerned with firing "corrosive" cartridges, if the rifle is cleaned after firing that should not be a big deal. I have fired many rounds of FN made .303" Mk.VII Ball head stamped 1950, they all fired just fine, same thing with firing 1980 era South African .303" Mk.VII Ball. The only older ammunition I had trouble with was 1960's era .303" Mk.VII Ball made in Pakistan. It made my 1942 No.4 Mk.I* shoot like a Match Lock from the Civil War (English Civil War of the 1600's) click......boom! LOL.

Being third generation English-American I tend to like Lee-Enfields. I will picking up my third Lee-Enfield this coming Wed. It is a 1943 No.4 Mk.I made by Birmingham Small Arms, looking forward to that.

Thanks
Mark
 
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Unless I missed something, it may not actually be an "Enfield". It could instead be a P-14, which is actually a Mauser. They were designed for a very powerful 7mm cartridge, which was dropped when WWI started. The design was changed slightly and rechambered for .303 British. Many of them were used in both world wars. It was again slightly redesigned and rechambered for .30-06, becoming the M1917, which was again used in both wars.
 
CMort brings up a good point. It could be a Pattern of 1914 (P14) made in the US for England during WWI. These are chambered in .303 British and highly coveted here in the US (especially if manufactured by Winchester).

Even less likely is that it is a Model of 1917 Rifle, chambered in .30-06, but this would have to mean that you have shot it and don't know the difference between .303 British and .30-06. I'm confident that is NOT the case, but I mention it here just for completeness (on the off chance someone is reading this who really doesn't know). :)

Pictures would be great, and at a minimum, a description of the markings on it. Again, let us know the headstamp on the ammo too! :D
 
Another spin is the Enfield I have from my father, bought around the same time and for the same price. It is a Jungle Carbine clone, actually a NO4 MKI cut down and restocked to look like the NO5 MKI.
 
The bayonet would be a quick ID to the rifle.
The most common #4 bayonet is the short round 'spike'. (Rare is the cruciform shape blade of the same)
No grips, just a metal attachment arrangement in place. Simple round tube scabbard, usually metal though some were plastic late.
(A knife blade in place of the spike was also tried, no change in the rifle attachment arrangement)

The No1MkIII uses a long (20" ?)standard knife blade bayonet with wooden grips and a leather covered scabbard.

#5 (Jungle Carbine) Looks like a shortened version of the No1MkIII bayonet. I think the scabbard is metal in most cases. Some plastic from Ishapore maybe.

There are variations of course but thats the general layout.

If you come up with a No1MkIII style bayonet with a 'hook' shape on the lower guard/pommel,,you've got a real treasure as most all were recalled & reworked to have that feature removed.
Those are early No1MkI rifle bayonets. They are rare & valuable enough in their original form that the feature is faked (welded and aged) back onto cut specimens and passed off as originals.

Pre SMLE rifles (LongLee Rifles & Carbines) used a different bayonet altogether,,1888 series I think.

...we're gonna have to start posting our own pics here pretty soon!
 
Here is another forum thread with great info and pics: http://smith-wessonforum.com/lounge/89669-british-303-smle.html

Lots of good info here: Collecting and Shooting the Military Surplus Rifle (2006) - Surplusrifle.com

Scroll down the left side for the various Enfield/SMLE selections.

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This rifle was your father's. Do you truly want to sell it? Might that not hurt his feelings greatly? Don't you want to keep it as a momento of him when he passes on?

If you fired that rifle with military ammo in 1992, and didn't clean it right, the bore is probably ruined. Have you even taken out the bolt and looked down that barrel with a bore light?

I suggest using Winchester commecial .303 ammo if you can find it. Remington uses round-nosed bullets that are less likely to shoot to the sights. They are also more likely to have feeding problems.

Please do post a photo, or at least tell us what the metal socket that holds the stock says on it. Those markings will tell us what you have.

T-Star
 
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