Laser Sights-Value in Real World Combat

Ogilvy found a good use for one, critters. As far as a bad guy, nah.

They have their place & can be very useful. But they are not a cure all or a replacement for frequent practice.

Just returned from the range. Fired off 3 of boxes of .38's in the 640 (with CT). Turned the CT off for the last 50 rounds and found my shooting had improved (just not as precise). It's obvious that if you have them you should practice using the CT, but you should also practice with it turned off.

I've never used one, except on a taser, and they work on them. I did respond to a shooting several years ago where a laser was used very accurately. It was grip mounted on a short barreled 38 and the shootee was center punched by the shooter. Definitely an anecdotal account but.....

I've never used one, but it seems to me that it would work very well in a stressful situation.

As a species, rifles and handguns are the only method of launching a projectile in which we DON'T focus intently on the target.

Look at what human beings have always done--throw a rock, look at the target. Throw a spear, look at the target. Atalatl, look at the target. Shoot a bow (traditional) look at the target.

Try to hit a nail with a hammer while looking at the hammer.

Toss in a lot of stress as in a self defense scenario, i.e. somebody shooting at you, and I'd wager there's way less than one shooter in ten--if that many--whose focus is going to be on the front sight and not the threat. As a species we've survived because we could focus on and deal with a threat.

We'd like to think we could do it, but in those high stress situations human nature is going to take over. Putting an aiming point or reference on the target works with the way people deal with stress and danger.

Once upon a time firearms had no sights. You simply pointed them and fired. Then someone started putting a "fore" sight on the front of the barrel. Apparently it helped get rounds on target. Go figure. Now... fast forward through the plethora of iron sights that were developed... up through the first primitive scopes that were mounted on rifles and then machine guns and then... even handguns. If some thought the arrangements odd/awkward, the results on target and in the match scores spoke for themselves. Now... what was once a curiosity brings added utility and effectiveness to firearms. Go figure. In a few years we'll look at discussions about using/not using lasers/red dots, etc. and see them the same way as discussions that once focused on if or if not one should mount a low-powered scope on a hunting rifle.

Cooter Brown said:

I've never used one, but it seems to me that it would work very well in a stressful situation.

As a species, rifles and handguns are the only method of launching a projectile in which we DON'T focus intently on the target.

Look at what human beings have always done--throw a rock, look at the target. Throw a spear, look at the target. Atalatl, look at the target. Shoot a bow (traditional) look at the target.

Try to hit a nail with a hammer while looking at the hammer.

Toss in a lot of stress as in a self defense scenario, i.e. somebody shooting at you, and I'd wager there's way less than one shooter in ten--if that many--whose focus is going to be on the front sight and not the threat. As a species we've survived because we could focus on and deal with a threat.

We'd like to think we could do it, but in those high stress situations human nature is going to take over. Putting an aiming point or reference on the target works with the way people deal with stress and danger.

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An interesting thread to resurrect. Cooter's points are well founded, point shooting is target focused and lasers and red dot sights allow accurate target focused shooting well beyond the usual few yards we that we normally use point shooting. The growing trend of mini red dot sights on self defense handguns is testimony to how well target focused shooting works - superimpose the dot on the target and fire. You're shooting with both eyes open, no more trying to work with three different focal planes (rear sight, front sight, target), plus you have the huge defensive advantage of keeping your target in focus all the time.

Also, as we age and our vision deteriorates, corrective lenses can make it even more difficult to get a proper sight picture with conventional iron sights. I wear progressive bifocals now and the only way for me to get good focus on the front sight is to tip my head back so that I'm using the reading portion of the lens and my distance shooting has suffered because of these changes. With a red dot I am able to focus on the target and the dot is as clear and sharp as the target is, exactly the same advantage that the red dot sight on my patrol rifle gives me.

I recently purchased a new FNP-45 Tactical pistol and a Trijicon RMR mini red dot sight to replace my 1911 as my duty weapon for the reasons mentioned above among other advantages. The RMR cowitnesses with the iron sights on the pistol, just like the set up on my rifle. There has been a bit of adjustment to get used to focusing on the target beyond normal point shooting range, old habits die hard, but thanks to the cowitness when I press the gun out and line up the sights the dot appears on the target. There is no hunting around for it.

Iron sights will never go away but the same as night sights on handguns and red dot and holographic sights on rifles have become the norm, I think you'll find that these smaller red dot sights become more and more common of defensive handguns for all of the advantages they offer.

BTW Cooter, the hammer and nail analogy is terrific. I hope you don't mind me using that one!

I put a laser on the wife's SIG 2022 this Christmas. She shoots it pretty darn well but I still make her practice with the iron sights.

I think short barreled compacts are where these things really shine, pardon the expression.

I have bad eyes & was able to dump a magazine fairly quickly into a small area at 10 yards. Not having to pick up the front sight in dim light really makes a difference.

Had a (free) CT on the wife's M37 air weight for a while. The switch went on and stayed on when you gripped the gun, and the grip contours made recoil very painful. Plus the net effect was to slow shooting down. We promptly sold it off.

Previously I did quite a bit of night fire with a good flashlight with good results.

Not agin everything new as I run a 1.5x ACOG on the AR, a red dot on the 15-22, and like the idea of a mini-red dot on pistols some time down the road.

My concern has always been that the beam of light is straight while the bullet's flight is curved. Seems the effective range would be limited to a certain spread of distances. Any ACTUAL experiences at varied distances?

For my 642 and 3913 at least, if you zero the laser @ about 30 feet, it'll be on within 3 inches or so out to about 25 yards. More than good enough. If you zero it farther out, it'll be even closer for longer. Up close, your round will hit above and to the left of the laser...out at 25 feet, the round and dot will hit in the same exact spot...and then farther out, your round will start to hit below and to the right of the dot's position.


I find it far easier to quickly shoot 12oz soda cans at varying ranges out to 25 yards w/ my 642 in rapid succession in low light with the CT grips than I do trying to shoot them with iron sights in broad daylight.

It was really an eye opening experience when I brought home a target from my first day at the range at dusk w/ the laser sights and saw groups that were significantly better than I can usually do with iron sights.

It's not the same thing when you get into long barreled guns with decent distance between sights, but with J frames and other short barreled guns the benefit is extreme. Shooting in awkward positions becomes easy too; you don't actually need to be able to line up the sights with your eye at all to shoot accurately. I was a skeptic until I got to try them out, but now I am a die hard fan of lasers on defensive guns.

Consider that most defensive shooting happens in the dark or in low light situations, and combine that with the knowledge that you will focus ON THE THREAT generally when you are threatened; the laser is a logical tool to have. Many people will spend 120$ on a set of glowing night sights for their gun but balk at spending 150$ for a laser grip. If i need to shoot defensively, the last thing I want to be doing is try to make out the softly glowing circles from my night sights against a possible complex/cluttered visual field - possibly with lots of moving bright lights throughout.

Southampton,

I did put a laser on my Glock 21C, which at the time was my duty sidearm.

With it being a compensated barrel I had issues that made it less effective than I desired.

My thought process for my primary goal was intimidation. If I could gain some compliance by "lighting them up", I felt might be able to change the behavior without deadly force.

Never got to put it into practice. I have heard of officers that were able to get the attention of the "bad guy" and it worked to achieve the goal.

My concern has always been that the beam of light is straight while the bullet's flight is curved. Seems the effective range would be limited to a certain spread of distances. Any ACTUAL experiences at varied distances?

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At normal SD situations you wont know the difference, even out of a snubby.

Even at 25 yards, you aim center mass, its gonna hit center mass whether you use the laser or iron sights. Might be a difference of a couple inches (at the longer range) but does that really matter when you have the target the size, from the neck to the belly button.

We're not talking about precission shooting like ISU or Rifle Shooting where an inch or two would take you out of the money.

pawncop said:

My thought process for my primary goal was intimidation. If I could gain some compliance by "lighting them up", I felt might be able to change the behavior without deadly force.

Never got to put it into practice. I have heard of officers that were able to get the attention of the "bad guy" and it worked to achieve the goal.

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I keep hearing that you're supposed to put the dot on the center of the bad guy's chest. He'll see the dot and instantly surrender..........Right?

I would put the dot on the bridge of his NOSE. He can't possibly miss it there, and nobody wants to get shot in the face!

I thought lasers were just gimmicks........until my up-close vision got so bad I couldn't see the sights anymore. And in the dark, you'd be lucky to see them with good vision. Plus, you can stay behind cover with just your shooting hand exposed, put the dot where it needs to go, and squeeze off a shot. Or if I've been knocked to the ground, I can still index the gun without contorting to line up the sights. I think they can be very useful.......in certain situations.

One of my gun show buddies was near blind. He had a Glock27 with a Lasermax guide rod laser. After he died his table pard was selling the gun. Looks just like a reg g27, nothing hanging down. I offered him a 4" mod 19-4 in trade and he accepted. I'm satisfied and enjoy the gee whiz factor but I doubt I'd remember to use laser in a shtf situation. It's a pulsating beam and the dogs loved to chase it til they realized their efforts were futile.

I can see where having a laser on your pistol would come in quite handy when calling in an air strike - One less thing to tote around.

Laser Sights = Old Men's Eyes

Many people do not shoot with the correct method with laser sights.
You should bring the firearm up to 6" below eye level,
this maintains your peripheral vision.

Activate the Laser
If laser does not activate, continue up to your eye level and use the iron sights.