The LEO who faced an “invincible” assailant.

Kelly Green · Apr 18, 2013

I read this story, a presentation by Sergeant Timothy Gramins to the annual conference of the Assn. of SWAT Personnel-Wisconsin, and I cannot imagine facing an aggressor like the one Sergeant Gramins encountered. His story reinforces my respect for all LEOs who put their lives on the line every day.

This officer was in a one-on-one gun battle for his life with an attacker who would not go down despite being shot 14 times with .45 caliber rounds. Six of the shots should have been fatal.

At the bottom of the sidebar to this story is a link to “Lessons learned from facing an “invincible” assailant”.

Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

rwsmith · Apr 18, 2013

This reinforces my conclusion

I came to the conclusion after reading all over about "one shot stops" is that after you fire once you'd better be prepared to keep firing.

I suppose self/home defenders answering to charges that they 'shot too many times' would be helped by this case.

Kanewpadle · Apr 18, 2013

I like his last word on the matter. "Preparation"

Mule Packer · Apr 18, 2013

Interesting that he now only carries 9mm instead of the .45.

snubbyfan · Apr 18, 2013

Got me feeling like my snubbie's inadequate.

LVSteve · Apr 18, 2013

Mule Packer said:
Interesting that he now only carries 9mm instead of the .45.

Yeah, that caught my eye, too. I'm wondering if something revealed in the autopsy on the perp made him do that.

Kanewpadle · Apr 18, 2013

LVSteve said:
Yeah, that caught my eye, too. I'm wondering if something revealed in the autopsy on the perp made him do that.

If you read further down in the comments, he states why.

Ethang · Apr 18, 2013

snubbyfan said:
Got me feeling like my snubbie's inadequate.

I came to that conclusion after the shootout in my station. A snubby carries well and is very comforting until bullets start flying and you realize that no amount of ammo is enough when they are flying both ways. Since then a compact Glock is the least I will carry and most days its a full size duty weapon.

charlie sherrill · Apr 18, 2013

I've heard the stupid ER commments before also. Years ago I got into it with a guy and even though I eventually came out on top I looked as bad as he did. I heard one of the ER workers in the next cube say "why did they have to beat him so bad?" I said "come over here and find out," meaning come see what I look like. It must have scared her because I heard her leave without seeing me.

As far as the gunfight goes remember this: Once you commit to shoot, you shoot to kill. You shoot to kill to keep from getting killed and you don't quit shooting until the other guy is no longer moving. If you do quit shooting it may give him the opportunity to kill you.

Roadtrash · Apr 19, 2013

Shoot till you run out of ammo. Don't reload and start again though that kind of p***** off the cops when they arrive.

LVSteve · Apr 19, 2013

Kanewpadle said:
If you read further down in the comments, he states why.

Thought that might be it.

Dikinalaska · Apr 19, 2013

LVSteve said:
Yeah, that caught my eye, too. I'm wondering if something revealed in the autopsy on the perp made him do that.

This was stated at the top of the page. I would guess that it's because you can hold more rounds.

"Don’t waste time arguing the relative merits of various calibers. No handgun rounds have reliable stopping power with body shots. Pick the round you can shoot best and practice shooting at the suspect’s head.”

badge · Apr 19, 2013

Once an exchange of gunfire commences you cannot have enough in the way of cover or rounds to return fire. I really do not feel that caliber is the issue in many of these situations as in this one you had an officer with a .45 acp, touted as the ultimate manstopper. I think they are excellent as is the .40, 9mm and .357 Sig but if you have a determined suspect who decides he isn't going to submit or die then it's on and you had best be prepared to hit him as fast and as many times as you can to put him or her DOWN. I would nt question anyone in their choice of firearms for defensive carry but when I go out I try and be prepared with reloads for both weapons and hopefully not become embroiled in anything. If it is unavoidable then I hope my training and mental preparedness will keep me safe. Stay well all.

jimmyj · Apr 19, 2013

WOW !
Now I don't mind CCW a Glock 17 9mm

WC145 · Apr 19, 2013

Wow! Crazy story, just proves that you never know when or where the world suddenly goes to poop. One of the main reasons I switched from carrying a 1911 on duty (a much as I love my 1911s) and went with a FNP45 Tactical was capacity - 15+1 vs 8+1. I work in a very rural area where back up could easily be 20mins or more away, nobody to bum mags off of out here, you need to be able to hold your own until the job is done.

M&P Mike · Apr 19, 2013

In IDPA we have a setup we call the "Mozambique Drill" . It simulates three 200 lbs bad guys running at you, wired to the gills on cocaine. Two shots to the chest each, move to cover with Tac\retention reload and then 1 to the head.

Silver Dollar · Apr 19, 2013

Yowzer !! It makes me want to carry a Thompson M1928 with the hundred round drum.

I've notice during my career that pain tolerance of some people is unbelievably high. I had a patient in the Air Force that had me take out two teeth without anesthetic and one of those teeth was in deep. He wasn't a big guy but I'd hate to meet him in a dark alley. It sort of makes me rethink the 30 round magazine. Too bad they don't fit in a 1911.

Mpoc89 · Apr 19, 2013

Pcp lol, in all seriousness scary!

Doug M. · Apr 19, 2013

Note the responses from Sgt. Gramins and from TPD223 (Lt. Chuck Haggard), both of whom are BTDT. They know of what they speak, and although I don't know Chuck personally, I do know people who do, and all respect him. My last LE agency was 45 only. When I carried a 1911, I had 8+1 in it, and a quad mag carrier, plus 5 more mags in my patrol box or carbine case. When I transitioned to the G21, I had 13 +1, and 3 mags, plus another couple in my patrol box and carbine case. I also had at least 3 30 round mags of authorized carbine ammo in addition to the 50 rounds in department mags (1 30, 1 20). I also carried a G33 BUG, and a spare mag for it. I was usually in a rural area and could easily be 20+ minutes from backup.

The performance of the common duty calibers with good loads is so similar that it does not really matter; the cheaper ammo in 9mm (more practice) and higher capacity makes it a winner for most uses. Even now, retired, I rarely carry anything smaller than my G33 and a spare mag - a J frame is almost never anything but a 2nd or 3rd gun.

mc5aw · Apr 20, 2013

charlie sherrill said:
As far as the gunfight goes remember this: Once you commit to shoot, you shoot to kill. You shoot to kill to keep from getting killed and you don't quit shooting until the other guy is no longer moving. If you do quit shooting it may give him the opportunity to kill you.

This sums it up perfectly, and I will defer to Charlie Sherrill's lifetime of expertise in LE for providing such sound advice regarding ending a threat.

The LEO who faced an “invincible” assailant.

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