ATF Complaining About....Pens and Ink?

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thehumphries

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Hey Everyone,

So this week I purchased my first AR (S&W MP15 Sport) and when I started doing the paperwork for the firearm (WI), I used a pen that was laying around on the counter of my LGS. I was then given a "special" pen they now use to fill out forms.

The last time the ATF did a check-in at my LGS, they complained about how the LGS was using different pens and ink and not "keeping it consistent".

Not only is this amazingly stupid but there are no rules against using different pens! Another way our government is trying to subvert our 2A rights.

But anyone else ever run into this? I haven't heard of it, but it wouldn't surprise me...
 
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It's been a couple of years ago but while purchasing a firearm at Dicks Sporting Goods. They said per the BATFE, the 4473 had to be filled out in all capital letters and no abbreviations. I've not had that happen since then, It sounds like some people are making their own rules up.
 
A few months back when buying a firearm at Cabelas, I reached into my pocket for my own pen-a Pelikan fountain pen that I keep filled with blue-black ink. I was told that I was required to use blue ballpoint, which struck me as a bit odd(I've filled out a number of 4473s with that particular fountain pen and ink combination).

I should also point out that the local Cabelas uses the electronic 4473s and that a pen is only required to sign the form(not fill it out).

In any case, I didn't see any point in arguing but have used the fountain pen for one or two 4473s since(not at Cabelas) and no one has taken issue with it.
 
I remember once, some 40+ years ago, when I had a gun store, a client came in that could not read , write or speak English. ( Elderly Native American ). Called the ATF for direction on how to do the paperwork. They said they would "Get back to me" I'm still waiting. I "sold " the gun a store clerk and he "gave it to the client as a present." which was legal then as a private party transfer. Ed.
 
New one on me, but ATF field agents have broad discretion and if one has such an issue there isn't much you can do about it but to smile and say thank you. No dealer wants to tick them off so you generally don't dispute such things.

I'm lucky, I live in a red state where ATF isnt' under Senator pressure to bust our chops. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but in general they have been helpful and fine. I just keep hoping it stays that way.

Some people may want it done a certain way b/c they have to transcribe some of the info into their book and they're worried about legibility. Just a swag.
 
Back in the day black pen was the only color that would reproduce satisfactorily. Good grief. I got out of the Navy in '94 and that was kind of starting to go away.

I usually use my own black pen for documents but to my knowlege nobody's specified a type or color.

In Kalifornistan they are very picky about abbreviations on the 4473. There is one place where it's allowed but there simply isn't any room for the full word.
 
Sometimes there are legitimate reasons for specifying a particular type of pen or color of ink. Some multi-sheet forms required a ball-point pen to press through and transfer to the lower copies. Some paper types would "bleed" ink if you used a fountain, felt-tip, or gel pen. Some forms would have to be scanned later, and certain colors of ink wouldn't show up properly. And so on.

Unfortunately, some people will continue the requirements for different things when they're no longer needed simply because they don't know the reason the rule was made in the first place. They just blindly do it that way because, "That's the way they always did it before." They'll never bother to check whether or not it's still necessary.

Sometimes you should really check if something you do out of habit needs to be re-examined. For instance: Many auto owners got into the "habit" of changing their oil about every 3000 miles when this used to be considered a good practice. But for many new cars, the recommended oil change interval is considerably longer now. You might just want to check your manual, because the average oil-change shop is unlikely to tell you... :rolleyes:
 
For years, at several different dealers, I've been told that you could not use abbreviations.

You do not live on 18th St. NW, you live on eighteenth street, north west, and you don't live in Miami, FL, you live in Miami Florida.

Oh well. You do what you can.

Since this was all said at different dealers, but in the same town, I suppose it could be ONE power-mad ATF agent making his own rules.

As for the ink, when I was dealing with the Air Force, in the early 80s, I had to use black ink because blue would not xerox. Then, dealing with the Army, in the early 2000s, I had to use blue ink, so they could tell if it was an original or a xerox. Then along came color copiers, and nobody cared any more.
 
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CCWKY said:
It's been a couple of years ago but while purchasing a firearm at Dicks Sporting Goods. They said per the BATFE, the 4473 had to be filled out in all capital letters and no abbreviations. I've not had that happen since then, It sounds like some people are making their own rules up.
Click to expand...

This happens at all of the various government fiefdoms. Some nit-witted supervisor blast emails a memo to their subordinates just so they can put their "signature" on a procedure. So stupid.
 
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It all depends on the agent(s) responsible for auditing a particular region or store.
The last LGS I worked at was sternly admonished to use better price tags on guns. Specified that the tags had to be reinforced and applied with a zip tie.
The shop I'm at now, 15 miles away, attaches paper tags with rubber bands. No problem.
It's nuts.
 
I remember being told not to abbreviate but besides my state there is nothing that i could abbreviate anyway.

It goes double for NFA paperwork. Write it out and write it neat (legible). It makes sense.

As for the pens....maybe they were using crappy pens. I kick back paperwork to my drivers when i cant make out what it says. Some pens really do suck. They dont have a steady ink flow and leave light marks and even dead space as you write.

My example just from whats on my table.....and the blue isnt too bad, ive seen much worse


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When we apply for a Pistol Permit here, we MUST use a BLACK BALL POINT PEN ONLY. Writing must be in NEAT print. Up until about 25 years ago the applications had to have been typed until they finally got the message that people don't have typewriters anymore. I remember borrowing a friends typewriter to fill one out years ago.

On the other side of the coin, I have seen handwriting from some people that could not be read even by Sherlock Holmes!
 
I use whatever they give me, I don't carry one of those CCW pens they want you to use for self defense, could get into trouble with the law, besides I wright on the walls in the restrooms if I carry them. They let you use abbreviations here cause most of us can't spell noway and Wally World has electronic filing, good thig cant read my wrighting sometimes guess I should have been a doctor.
 
I guess coming from a real estate background I get the pen required issue. For contracts and closing forms blue ink has been required here in Utah for years. The reason is; in this day and age of photo copies and laser printers they know they are looking at originals at just a glace and not a reproduction.

When it comes to abbreviations on 4473 the ATF instructions only allows US Postal Service approved abbreviations. Here in Utah that means where they ask for state of residence the approved abbreviations is UT and not Ut. It gets weird for me. I live in Utah county. There is no approved postal approved abbreviation for Utah County. UT is not acceptable in the county box only Utah spelled out will do. Then you have all those street, court, north, south, east and west things to worry about. So you can see a dealers problem; it is easier to ask the customer to not abbreviate than to worry about them using the wrong abbreviation and having some anal ATF agent ding them during an audit and potentially losing their FFL.
 
Back when I was read into and mucking around in the [Classified] program, the inspectors who came through on quality audits went bonkers if records were kept with the wrong colored ink. Apparently there is a fine degree of shading between black and blue-black ink and they could tell the difference.
 
.

Well, we alls know'd all along, them gov't folks are always turnin' a blind eye to what's fair and just....

Now it seems their color'd blind as well........:rolleyes:


.
 
I have several "visits" from BATFE agents over the years. Both episodes related to multigun purchases from a major auction.

I believe ATF agents are bored silly and leaderless and demoralized. They have not had a Senate-approved Director for years. Then Obama sanctions an outrageous gun-running scam and they get their asses shot off....deservedly so.

Both times the visit was under pretense of verifying I had the guns. It never dawned on the agents that drug lords/gang bangers don't buy old revolvers. One agent claimed a gun used in a felony traced to me(the gun was a pre-war Heavy Duty) and still in my safe.

In retrospect, I believe both visits were fishing expeditions to pad work sheets. The agency is truly a mess and should be abolished.
 
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