Fox or Parker??

Not knocking LC Smith..LeFever..Baker..Winchester 21..whatever(I own an ancient Colt 1878 myself)

But really?..Whats the top classic American double-gun??

Parker, by a long shot.

I like the looks of a sidelock L. C. Smith. A. H. Fox has a nice looking boxlock. Take it all the way around for looks and shooting and pride of ownership I wouldn't trade my Win. M21 for a truckload of Parkers, Smiths, Foxes, etc. Larry

Parkers in high condition always get a lot of attention. A good LC Smith goes fast in Kentucky, too.

Fox Sterlingworth.

There's a place in my heart for old Ithaca over and unders and Lefever shotguns.

Depends on your criteria.

As far as handling qualities, (which to me as a bird hunter trumps everything) the Philly and Utica Foxes by a very long shot.

There are some decent handling Parkers and others in the sub gauges, but none of them come close to the Fox. The Fox is really the only American gun that matches the handling dynamics of an English gun.

Parkers have been getting the big bucks for a long time, but as people have come to realize how sweet the Foxes are, those guns are catching up. Even the Sterlingworths are bringing triple what they did just a few years ago.

If you get a chance look at the custom job S. D. Hughes did on his personal Sterly--stunning!

I would just about mortgage my alleged soul for a Fox in 20 gauge. Preferably 26" IC/M.

Dream on...no money, and can't hunt anymore anyway.

They all have their loyal following for sure. There are good points in the designs, some bad, some myths but any of them will perform just fine.

Parker is usually the first name that comes to mind when classic USA SxS subject matter gets discussed or argued. They for sure have alot of followers, they get a lot of money for collector condition guns of all grades and have for quite some time.

I've always felt it was because it was probably (one of) the first to have a book on them published from the collector angle. That'll always perk up interest in any one firearm.

A lot more complicated inside than a Fox or Ithaca (NID), but not a lot goes wrong with any of them unless abused, neglected or tinkered with un-necessarily.
Single triggers and ejectors probably bring the most complaints. That true for any mfg. Most 'smiths won't touch 'em.
Tried and true double triggers and extractors are near fool proof though.

Next is bbls off face and loose lock-up. Top lever left of center complaints. True for all of them.

AH Fox is a simple design. Coil mainsprings, same as the Parker and Ithaca. Ejectors are simpler too.
I'd say the Parker ejectors are probably the most intricate parts to work on and hard to find if you need them. Flat springs power the Parkers,,coil in the Ithaca and Fox.

Rotary bolt in the Fox & Ithaca as well as the LC Smith. Dispite claims to the contrary, they do wear out. Things do just wear out, nothing magical about these.

LC Smiths are a bit more fragile for lack of a better word in my opinion. Stocks crack easily. There's little frame to wood contact to begin with. When right, it's enough to do the job. But over time wood shrinkage, loosened tang screws, oil soaked wood, ect lessens that perfect fit and the recoil pounds the wood.
The crack at the rear edge of the side plates is common as is one at the rear of the top tang.

Their locks are nothing special on them. Actually they are 'back action' locks. Something considered low end in the muzzle loader and side hammer gun industry. Fit up of the locks isn't that awful good as mfg got later and later. The early guns are nice, pre 1913.
They work though and have a lot of fans. Don't dry fire them!

Winchester 21 discussions can almost start a war between true believers and those that plain don't like them.
They're built to be an assembly line gun as they originally were. They are tough, easy to work on and can be made up into most anything you like.
Occasional single trigger problems like the rest of the crowd.

Early guns were double trigger /extractor. 28ga guns weight more than 20ga guns. Original Winchester mfg rames are harder than Haiti to engrave. Some need to be drawn back to be done. The rest you struggled through. New production from CSMCo is 8620 steel and cut OK.

The early Remington SxS shotguns are often overlooked, sometimes never seen as the production was no where near the others.
The 1900 is a plain jane for sure, an economy version of the 1894.
But the 1894 and back are some very nicely finished shotguns. The higher grades equal anything the others produced
Original mfg Lefever (side plate boxlocks) shouldn't be over looked either for quality.

The AH Fox seems to be the current favorite in American SxS for a custom gun. Affordable project guns in small bores w/ ejectors (Sterlingworths) are still available.
The same project piece in a Parker can easily double or triple the cost to begin with.
Ithaca NID's haven't quite caught the custom wave yet but there are some nice ones out there.
People still flinch thinking about resale before they even start the build 'they will never sell'. Makes no sense to me. Make what you want, it ain't goin with you.

I have an AH Fox 16ga Sterlingworth ejector 28" currently in the middle of a re-build. Re-stock to straight grip, tangs are bent and repositioned, reshape the frame a bit, checker, engrave, ect, ect.
No where near done, and still haven't decided on the engraving yet,,nor the checkering pattern. But these things happen when I sit down to do them usually. They'll loosly follow a factory style, probably early F style but not sure. No Lightn'in bolts on the bbl though!
Just finishing up filing out the action. Wood is done except for the checkering and giving it loving looks. A few more ultra thin oil coats after the checkering is done and everything reassembled.
Much to do yet.

Just some thoughts,,,back to work.

I trust you know that if you don't post pictures of that Sterlingworth 16 there will be a huge cry of "Somebody get a rope!"

I like double triggers and extractors, but I'm a throwback.

Parker is the most expensive. I've had all but Fox. My favorite it the Ithaca Sweet 16. I found my first one as a kid at a yard sale for $50, it was well worn, but served me well during my teens years. Parkers are for the glass gun case, you can still afford to shoot some of the others.

JMO.

My Dad had a 16 gauge Philadelphia Fox, and his Dad had an L. C. Smith, also in 16. Both guns left the family before I had any say in it, but I remember how special they were. Recently I bought a 1913 Ithaca 16, and will try to bring down a grouse or two this fall with my 100-year-old scattergun. I'm debating whether to have the short chambers lengthened and the chokes opened a bit. One of the best barrel guys in the country lives in a nearby town. The gun is in good condition, but it's not a show pony, so I don't think it would hurt the value.

I've had a couple Sterlingworths over the years and found them to be nice guns. I was looking for a 20 something to use as a back up to my 12 CZ Bruno side lock and stumbled on a 20 ga LC Smith Fulton at the NE Ohio Bunch. I'll use it on pheasants this fall and give the Bruno a rest. Larry

shouldazagged said:

I trust you know that if you don't post pictures of that Sterlingworth 16 there will be a huge cry of "Somebody get a rope!"

I like double triggers and extractors, but I'm a throwback.

Click to expand...

A couple quick pics, my normal out of focus floppy disc pictures.
Not much to show.
The action, bbls and forend assembled in the white still being filed to shape. Top lever old crude checkering welded in and the piece has been through the belt grinder to rough shape it. Heel & toe plates for the butt stock. One polished up ready to engrave, the other still all scratched up from fitting yet. The old pistol grip trigger guard in the pic. The new straight guard is a NOS from Spanish SxS production. I bought a bunch some time back.
I like to save the old guards if I can to restore other guns instead of cut and welding them. Original parts are getting hard to find.

The Spanish guards are rough shaped but decent guards. This one is final shaped on the tang of course as it's inletted. The bow needs to be shaped and the entire unit final polished. They came undrilled for tang screws, so you do that and I make the screws, Same as for the heel and toe plates.
The obligatory 'box of parts' made it into the pic. Everything in there to make your very own ejector small bore Fox. Just assemble using simple tools.

The wood finished as I said. It'll get checkered here sometime when I get to it. Hats off to Homer Formby.
Most any finish can work for you. It's how it's applied.
Still alot of work, polishing ect to do. A couple small bbl dents to push out. Ribs are solid though so no resoldering to do.








A couple others from the past.

A Parker Repro makes a nice upgrade custom..


Even the simple Lefever Nitro Special can be spiffed up. This was an 'A' Grade Nitro Special. Nothing much different from the regular models other than the frame is filed out to shape more like an Ithaca NID and they engraved a heavy single line border around everything. This one had a single non-selective trigger. 'A' grades have a nicer trigger guard with the small spur inside the bow too. The Field Grade N/Special used a simple bent one piece guard w/o the spur like a Flues Model. Small detail but it does dress it up a bit.

A 12ga. I re-stocked it as the butt stock was broken badly. Added a leather covered pad and copied the original checkering pattern but expaned the coverge a bit.
The forend is the oiginal. I repaired 3 or 4 long splits in it, but salvagable. Forends can be a pain to make, so saving it was a plus.
Lots of checkering there to recut.
I engraved it with ducks and a goose for the somewhat heavy gun that it is and just because I wanted too. The F & F chokes seemed appropriate too. A grey finish topped it off w/a blued forend, trigger guard, ect.
Sold it of course.




Even the pump gun can be a custom upgrade
This Marlin 43T was a $250 Gunshow buy. The original straight grip Euro walnut stock and forend were very worn, The metal was in pretty good shape other than blue wear. The original plate/pad gone and a Pachmeyer replacement in back over a 3/4" plywood spacer took their place. The wood was never cut though thank goodness.
A repro Silvers pad (w/widows peak!), wood redone and recheckered. A bit of touchup polishing to the metal where it showed major dings and wear at the edges. Very minor handling marks were left to stay or disappear in the engraving. I had to fix a couple things inside to get it to function 100%. Quite a puzzle palace to assemble the first time or two.

The engraving was done right through the original 1925 blueing.
Then the entire piece was rust blued again right over everything. Those few minor marks under the blue of no matter as it was to see extensive use again and it has.

I've put many hundreds of rounds through it since and it's taking on that used lovingly look once again. Not likely to see another on the Trap/Skeet range but you never know.
Not a copy of any specific pattern, just something I made up as I went along. The shape of the frame or part pretty much tells you what to do anyway.



Lots to do w/custom work or even just strict upgrade to factory specs.
There's too many project guns out there unfortunetly,,I'll never have time to finish them all at this rate and I still can't seem to turn an interesting one away.
I could think of worse things to be afflicted with.

WOW!!! Thanks for posting the pics. Gorgeous work.

Beautiful work!

This is what I've got coming

SAVAGE FOX STERLINGWORTH 12 GA 30" BARRELS : Side By Side Shotguns at GunBroker.com

Hopefully serviceable.

I'm keeping an eye out for a serviceable Parker Trojan and give both brands a workout

Stevie said:

Not knocking LC Smith..LeFever..Baker..Winchester 21..whatever(I own an ancient Colt 1878 myself)

But really?..Whats the top classic American double-gun??

Click to expand...

You marked the king of the American doubles off the list already; the Winchester 21!

Short of it, I haven't found any with quality surpassing the Parker.

Sadly, I have Parker taste, but an Ithaca budget, so I have to say that for the money, Ithaca is hard to beat.

2152hq said:

Lots to do w/custom work or even just strict upgrade to factory specs.
There's too many project guns out there unfortunetly,,I'll never have time to finish them all at this rate and I still can't seem to turn an interesting one away.
I could think of worse things to be afflicted with.

Click to expand...

Fantastic! A Fox 16 ga. is my dream gun! That's gonna be a beauty. Love the heel and toe caps. And like you I'm not wild about the lightening bolts, but that's the only thing I don't like about Foxes.

If I had the funds right now I'd do exactly what you are doing and rework a Sterly--but I'd have to pay somebody to do it! Someday...

I kick myself every day for not snapping up every 16 gauge Sterlingworth I saw back when they were selling for a song.

Are you doing this work for other people or is this for yourself?

Excellent synopsis in your first post.

gregintenn said:

You marked the king of the American doubles off the list already; the Winchester 21!

Short of it, I haven't found any with quality surpassing the Parker.

Sadly, I have Parker taste, but an Ithaca budget, so I have to say that for the money, Ithaca is hard to beat.

Click to expand...

Oh..I didn't mark it off the list..just cannot afford one...plus I'm a two trigger man when it comes to double-guns O/U or side by side. Winchester Model 21 shotguns with double triggers are rarer than hen's teeth!