Gunsmith Rant SAD UPDATE post #50 (Arrgh!!)

steamloco76

steamloco76

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I need a single hole drilled and tapped on the tang of my Cimmaron/Uberti 1873 Winchester rifle to install a Lyman tang sight. My gunsmith of 30 plus years died a while back, so I sent the rifle to another local gunsmith. He couldn't do the job because the rifle is too long to work in his drill setup. A second smith farther away declined to do the job over the phone for the same reason. Now, I had to have my LGS ship the rifle to Pittsburgh with his monthly load of repairs/modifications and hope they can drill and tap a single, solitary hole!

Since when can't a trained gunsmith drill a hole to install a tang sight specifically made for the rifle? There are hundreds of thousands of gun owners in Western PA, why are competent gunsmiths so hard to come by in this region? Trying to find a good S&W pistolsmith is even harder, luckily I can handle most routing revolver issues myself.
 
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Sign of the times my friend. Many of the "hands on" trades are getting older with not as many young guys to replace them.

Have the same problem in my profession. Good locksmiths are increasingly difficult to find. And many of the younger generation are not quite as mechanically inclined as the one before. So training them takes longer.

Look at it this way, at least the gunsmiths were honest with you instead of attempting to do the job half assed and ruining your gun.
 
There was a time when most guns required a gunsmith to perform repairs.
Most popular guns today (plastic pistols, AR style rifles) can be fixed by the owner simply replacing a generic part.
Since the goal of having a business is to make a profit, a "general" gunsmith these days can't make a living on the small amount of work available. Hence, there are few left.
 
JayCeeNC said:
There was a time when most guns required a gunsmith to perform repairs.
Most popular guns today (plastic pistols, AR style rifles) can be fixed by the owner simply replacing a generic part.
Since the goal of having a business is to make a profit, a "general" gunsmith these days can't make a living on the small amount of work available. Hence, there are few left.
Click to expand...

Yes, today many are simply parts changers.
 
First of all I would have merely taken the rifle to my shop, placed it in the padded vice and drilled the hole with my hand drill. Next using a starter tap I would have threaded the hole to the correct size for the sight screw. One hole should not require much skill. As one of my mentors is often saying, "it's not rocket science unless you make it rocket science".

If you are not comfortable using tools then might I suggest a machine shop. You don't really need the expertise of a gunsmith to drill and tap a hole. To make the process even easier for all, I would locate the sight on the tang where I wanted it and mark the hole in advance.
 
About 30 years ago a VERY WELL KNOWN "Gunsmith" destroyed two of my Colt Single action Revolvers while doing a simple trigger/action job on them. He ruined two gorgeous sets of genuine Ivory grips, ruined the barrel threads, nicked and dented the finishes, all while charging me for his garbage work! That my friends is when I decided no matter how long it took, no matter if I made mistakes, no matter how many specialty tools I had to go out and buy I was going to learn to do my own Smithing!

Long story short - - - with the exception of Hot Bluing an entire firearm over, NONE of my guns have ever left my home since then for any kind of repair work, tuning, or whatever they might need. Yes I have made a few minor mistakes, yes I have had to re-buy parts that I screwed up, but that was in the beginning. Now that I have all the tools, know-how, and patience my tasks go smoothly and are successful. I also take pride in my work and even if what "should be" a one hour job takes me a half day - I don't care but I get things exactly how I want them. Not only does the Smithing job come out right, but I totally enjoy doing so. Very satisfying to say the least and no more worrying about how bad a GS will screw up a beautiful prized gun! :)
 
heck W. Pa has one of the best Gunsmithing Schools in the nation. But IIRC only turns out a handful of new Smiths a year.

I've got three that I use........ one in Russellton , another just north of the Allegheny Co line off Rt 8 ( generally has a long backlog as he also work at a Sporting Goods Box Stores in Cranberry )........ and one in the South Hills/Bethel Park...... Allegheny Arms and Gun Works
 
There is no such thing as "just" drilling a hole on a firearm.

First, you have to make sure that the hole is perfectly located. This is difficult. And God help you if you need two or more holes in a straight line.

Then you have to make sure the hole is perfectly vertical.

Then you've got to ensure it's drilled to the proper depth, and cut the threads.

And after all that, you have to account for the fact that you're going to booger up a job from time to time, and pay to make it right. In the case of drilling holes, that can mean everything from fitting a new slide, to a whole new gun. Fixing a bad hole is hard to impossible.

Can you do it yourself with a drill press? Can a shadetree 'smith with less-than-perfect equipment do the job? Well--a job can be done. It all depends on what you expect..

A lot depends on the gun in question. If you've got low expectations and a cheap/replaceable gun, rolling the dice might be worthwhile.

If you have high expectations, ask questions. For instance, if you need three or four holes drilled for a sight base, you want to hear that it's being done with a milling machine at least, or a jig bore at best. If your local 'smith starts talking about using his drill press and an X-Y slide, and you expect really top-notch work--head elsewhere.

The lack of proper gunsmiths is not because us youths of today are not mechanically-inclined (I'm quite proud of my amateur work). It's because there's no money in it. The equipment to do really good work can be described in two words: "big" and "expensive". The liability insurance is crippling. And a good gunsmith has to deal with customers complaining about pricing, and constantly being undercut by every stump-jumping Jethro with a drill press in his basement.

Wanna give a gunsmith an aneurysm? Repeat after me: "XX dollars? It's only a hole!"

Not to mention the schooling required. Go on, go look for a gunsmithing school. There aren't very many, so unless you're willing to relocate, GL with that. You'd find an easier education and better pay working as a machinist.

And then go see about an apprenticeship in a reputable shop to learn the rest of the business, and start building a resume to differentiate yourself from aforementioned stump-jumping Jethros.
 
There is no such thing as "just" drilling a hole on a firearm.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry that you don't agree, your choice. The tang of most rifles is about 1/4" thick. The day that I can't drill ONE hole straight and perpendicular into 1/4" steel I will hang up my tool belt. We are talking about a hole that is probably no more than 1/8" in diameter and if drilled through the tang there is no harm done.

I have built several rifles including a Lancaster flintlock and most of the work only takes a little common sense and patience.

Again, if you are not comfortable with tools then use a machine shop as suggested.
 
There are many reasons it is hard to find a good smith. When I worked on guns I generally specialized with shotguns. There were some jobs I turned down too. Remember when you work on guns you are held responsible for anything that may happen after the fact. People blow a gun up and want to blame you. A fellow tried to sue me after I refused to work on his Contender bbl..so it was my fault when he drilled the scope mount holes deeper and the scope kept blowing off the gun. And to let you know... most work on guns involves a lot of part replacement and always has. The cost of parts is also ridiculous these days. One of the things I used to kinda specialize in was rust bluing guns... Takes 4 times the amount of time of hot bluing. I think I made no profit doing the work. Real gunsmithing is a dying business
 
I remember reading that the last administration wanted to make it so all Gunsmiths also had to be a full FFL.I don't know if it went through but that may be one reason They are a vanishing breed.
 
steamloco76 said:
I need a single hole drilled and tapped on the tang of my Cimmaron/Uberti 1873 Winchester rifle to install a Lyman tang sight. My gunsmith of 30 plus years died a while back, so I sent the rifle to another local gunsmith. He couldn't do the job because the rifle is too long to work in his drill setup. A second smith farther away declined to do the job over the phone for the same reason. Now, I had to have my LGS ship the rifle to Pittsburgh with his monthly load of repairs/modifications and hope they can drill and tap a single, solitary hole!

Since when can't a trained gunsmith drill a hole to install a tang sight specifically made for the rifle? There are hundreds of thousands of gun owners in Western PA, why are competent gunsmiths so hard to come by in this region? Trying to find a good S&W pistolsmith is even harder, luckily I can handle most routing revolver issues myself.
Click to expand...
Do you know John Berish at Berish Gun Shop. He's in New Salem, Pa down towards Uniontown.I bet he could handle this...he does custom rifles and I had him put an aperture sight and front sight on my sporterized 03 Springfield. Good guy too.
 
Probably better off having them recognize their limitations than trying and screwing up.

The fact that there are fewer and fewer gun smiths may indicate that guns are being made better, with fewer problems.
 
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Wise_A said:
There is no such thing as "just" drilling a hole on a firearm.

First, you have to make sure that the hole is perfectly located. This is difficult. And God help you if you need two or more holes in a straight line.

Then you have to make sure the hole is perfectly vertical.

Then you've got to ensure it's drilled to the proper depth, and cut the threads.

And after all that, you have to account for the fact that you're going to booger up a job from time to time, and pay to make it right. In the case of drilling holes, that can mean everything from fitting a new slide, to a whole new gun. Fixing a bad hole is hard to impossible.

Can you do it yourself with a drill press? Can a shadetree 'smith with less-than-perfect equipment do the job? Well--a job can be done. It all depends on what you expect..

A lot depends on the gun in question. If you've got low expectations and a cheap/replaceable gun, rolling the dice might be worthwhile.

If you have high expectations, ask questions. For instance, if you need three or four holes drilled for a sight base, you want to hear that it's being done with a milling machine at least, or a jig bore at best. If your local 'smith starts talking about using his drill press and an X-Y slide, and you expect really top-notch work--head elsewhere.

The lack of proper gunsmiths is not because us youths of today are not mechanically-inclined (I'm quite proud of my amateur work). It's because there's no money in it. The equipment to do really good work can be described in two words: "big" and "expensive". The liability insurance is crippling. And a good gunsmith has to deal with customers complaining about pricing, and constantly being undercut by every stump-jumping Jethro with a drill press in his basement.

Wanna give a gunsmith an aneurysm? Repeat after me: "XX dollars? It's only a hole!"

Not to mention the schooling required. Go on, go look for a gunsmithing school. There aren't very many, so unless you're willing to relocate, GL with that. You'd find an easier education and better pay working as a machinist.

And then go see about an apprenticeship in a reputable shop to learn the rest of the business, and start building a resume to differentiate yourself from aforementioned stump-jumping Jethros.
Click to expand...
I'm just going to add to this that most modern guns, the vast majority, don't require gunsmithing. Many rifles already come pre drilled and most handgun parts are plug and play. No need to hand fit.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
 
JSR III said:
I'm sorry that you don't agree, your choice. The tang of most rifles is about 1/4" thick. The day that I can't drill ONE hole straight and perpendicular into 1/4" steel I will hang up my tool belt. We are talking about a hole that is probably no more than 1/8" in diameter and if drilled through the tang there is no harm done.

I have built several rifles including a Lancaster flintlock and most of the work only takes a little common sense and patience.

Again, if you are not comfortable with tools then use a machine shop as suggested.
Click to expand...

I own and know how to properly use a wide range of tools, however I do not own tap and die sets or a set of numeric drill bits. Now, I could spend the money to buy the drills and taps but I highly doubt I'll need to drill another rifle. Plus, I don't wish to screw-up on a very visible part of a new $1,200 rifle with a beautiful finish. $50 to $100 on tools or $35 to $50 for the hole, in this case I will pay a professional.
 
raljr1 said:
Do you know John Berish at Berish Gun Shop. He's in New Salem, Pa down towards Uniontown.I bet he could handle this...he does custom rifles and I had him put an aperture sight and front sight on my sporterized 03 Springfield. Good guy too.
Click to expand...
My LGS uses Economy Gunsmithing in Sewickley, PA and has for quite a few years. The old guy I formerly used was great with shotguns, very good with rifles, good with semi-autos and scary bad with revolvers.
 
JSR III said:
First of all I would have merely taken the rifle to my shop, placed it in the padded vice and drilled the hole with my hand drill. Next using a starter tap I would have threaded the hole to the correct size for the sight screw. One hole should not require much skill. As one of my mentors is often saying, "it's not rocket science unless you make it rocket science".

If you are not comfortable using tools then might I suggest a machine shop. You don't really need the expertise of a gunsmith to drill and tap a hole. To make the process even easier for all, I would locate the sight on the tang where I wanted it and mark the hole in advance.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, a machine shop that agrees to do this is setting themselves up for a visit from ATF, and not a friendly visit at that. You have to have a FFL to do any commercial work on a firearm, even for something as simple as drilling and tapping a hole.
 
Don't know a good smith, or have any of that type of experience, but I remember reading on the Rossi forum about it being a challenge to drill the tangs on the 92's. Luckily, the 24" octagon I chose, was D&T and came with a longer extra screw in case a sight was added.

Have you checked the lever forums for recommendations?
 
steamloco76 said:
My LGS uses Economy Gunsmithing in Sewickley, PA and has for quite a few years. The old guy I formerly used was great with shotguns, very good with rifles, good with semi-autos and scary bad with revolvers.
Click to expand...

Used them a few times.....good guys and nice work.

I think a couple of them do or did teach at the Pennsylvania Gunsmith School......it's not far up the river.
 
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