Ammunition in a house fire

ArcticFox · Jul 14, 2009

What happens to stored ammo in a house fire. We had a house burn down in town today (there probably was ammo inside) and in talking to someone about it they said there were a lot of "pop-offs" during the fire. I think I read somewhere that ammo usually just melts down. Anyone know...

Crazy K38 · Jul 14, 2009

ummm no my father in law was burning boxes in a barrel and he got ahold of one that had some 7.62 in it (about 15 rds) and it ALL went off, luckily noone was hurt and nothing got shot, but it don't just melt!

GatorFarmer · Jul 14, 2009

ArcticFox said:
What happens to stored ammo in a house fire. We had a house burn down in town today (there probably was ammo inside) and in talking to someone about it they said there were a lot of "pop-offs" during the fire. I think I read somewhere that ammo usually just melts down. Anyone know...

SAAMI has pamphlets and videos available for firefighters and Mythbusters did an episode on the topic. In general it just harmlessly pops when the bullet seperates from the casing. The flying shell casing actually impacts somewhat more than the bullet, but isn't generally dangerous. Of course if you have something like a crate of 81mm mortar rounds or some grenades that Grandpa bought back from the Pacific, that might be more of an issue.

Opinions also seem to differ on what happens if one has something like a .50 caliber ammo can in a fire, whether it'll blow the can and send bits of flying. A few people have claimed that loaded mags have burst this way in a fire, but I don't recall seeing photos.

Small arms ammunition isn't supposed to be a great hazard in a house fire.

TxShooter · Jul 14, 2009

Usually the bullet separates from the case. Bunker gear is thick enough that any brass fragments penetrating shouldn't be an issue. If the owner happens to mention ammo, we do ask about any loaded guns. IIRC, the only one that ever discharged in a fire was a shotgun stored between the box spring and mattress.

Like Gator said, SAAMI has a pamphlet out, and you can probably get a reprint of the tests that American Rifleman did in the early '90s.

7.62foryou · Jul 14, 2009

My understanding is that because the bullet is not being forced down a rifled barrel no pressure is being built so the round just pops off. Shotguns don't work thay way so I think the result with shotgun shells could be more exciting.

Class III · Jul 14, 2009

From person experience:

When ammunition is burned it will explode with the same force as if it were fired from a handgun/rifle/shotgun. IF the ammo is in a contained, pressure controlled area, i.e. a chamber, the ammunition will fire as if someone pulled the trigger of the firearm and will react in the manner to which it was designed to operate, firing the projectile from the chamber into the barrel and into/through whatever is in front of the barrel.

In theory:

If the ammunition is "Loose", i.e., factory box, laying around in a speed loader/magazine it will detonate much the same as a fragmentation grenade, sending shrapnel in a theoretical 360* path. Considering the weight difference between a typical 17 Mach 2 to 50 BMG or 410 to 10 ga vs. a frag grenade the chances of injury are minimal since the loaded shell weighs much less than a frag grenade, offers a much lower ratio of weight to explosive expansion volume and is made of much softer (generally) metal than is available in the casing of a frag grenade, therefore generating much less energy at the point of detonation.

Class III

john3136 · Jul 14, 2009

Photos as a result of the bushfires in Australia earlier this year:
IPSC Australia Forums • View topic - Gunsafes and Bushfires

While you're there, here's our pistol club after the fires
IPSC Australia Forums • View topic - Bushfires effect on Mountain District Pistol Club

ImprovedModel56Fan · Jul 14, 2009

There was a big fire at a good-sized gun store in NJ in the early 70's, and NRA did a whole article on it. If the ammo is not in a container that might be dangerously exploded (like a lot of ammo in a safe), there's not too much to worry about. A cartridge case (which is what travels fastest) could perhaps put an eye out. Otherwise, maybe a welt. For the average well-dressed fireman, probably not an issue at all. Powder, of course, burns pretty well, but if you already have a fire, a little more may not make that much difference.

dkees · Jul 14, 2009

In the late 60s in Richmond, Indiana a gun store in the middle of the city caught fire. No problem with cook-offs............but then.........the fire reached a black powder bunker.

The blast took out an entire square block! The details are fuzzy but I know some people were killed.

I know we're no talking about black powder (or whatever that fake stuff is called) in this thread, but it's usually stored with other shooting supplies.

I'd read up on the storage of this stuff.

Homie · Jul 14, 2009

"Hatcher's Notebook" covered the subject pretty well. The General also wrote the articles in the "Rifleman".

Lots of urban legends!

Good shooting.

Old 44 Guy · Jul 14, 2009

Ammo in a fire

I spent 6 years on a volunteer fire dept. in the '60's. Fought 2 house fires, both had guns & ammo stored in them. We heard some popping over the crackling of the flames. No one was hurt or injured. Later at the fire house the Chief asked if anyone was hurt. Only damage we had was smoke inhalation. So don't worry about the ammo. Don't know if the guns were loaded or not.

Firehouse · Jul 14, 2009

GatorFarmer and TxShooter nailed it. It amounts to high dollar firecrackers, more or less.

The Last Standing Knight · Jul 14, 2009

I worked the aftermath of an apartment fire some years ago with a manager and a collegue. We found a box of 12 gauge shotgun shells. The heat was so intense that the box had burned away, but the shells didn't detonate, the flash melted them into a square the shape of the box that held it.

The manager, who was retired LEO, looked at it and said he had never seen anything like that before.

The stuff doesn't always go off, (divine intervention) during a fire.

Amici · Jul 14, 2009

7.62foryou said:
My understanding is that because the bullet is not being forced down a rifled barrel no pressure is being built so the round just pops off. Shotguns don't work thay way so I think the result with shotgun shells could be more exciting.

Nonsense. The principal for shotgun shells is exactly that of rifle and pistol cartridges. No containment, no significant pressure and the hull or case ruptures or separates from the projectile.

Note that shotgun shells and pistol cartridges often use the same propellant, such as Red Dot.

7.62foryou · Jul 15, 2009

Amici said:
Nonsense. The principal for shotgun shells is exactly that of rifle and pistol cartridges. No containment, no significant pressure and the hull or case ruptures or separates from the projectile.

Note that shotgun shells and pistol cartridges often use the same propellant, such as Red Dot.

Sorry I wasn't aware that buckshot was forced into the rifling the barrel. Way do you suppose the correct pressure is required on the wad over the powder in a shotshell but the powder in a pistol/rifle cartridge is loose? If you reload, the next time you load a pistol catridge use a little cotton and pack the powder down in the case real hard.

Amici · Jul 15, 2009

7.62foryou said:
Sorry I wasn't aware that buckshot was forced into the rifling the barrel.

Sorry; I didn't realize shotguns operated in a zero-pressure system.

The inertia of 7/8 - 1 1/8 ounces of shot being suddenly accelerated to many hundreds of feet per second is the result of the pressure of rapidly-expanding gasses that are impeded by the weight of that shot (or slug), while contained in the chamber of the gun. There is the additional pressure from the friction of the wad in the barrel.

In short, whether it's a bullet in a rifle or pistol barrel or a shot wad in a shotgun barrel, there is PRESSURE. Without it, smokeless propellants don't work as designed.

Way [sic] do you suppose the correct pressure is required on the wad over the powder in a shotshell but the powder in a pistol/rifle cartridge is loose? If you reload, the next time you load a pistol catridge use a little cotton and pack the powder down in the case real hard.

Next time you have some surplus smokeless propellant, pour a pile of it in the back yard and light it off. You'll get a dull flash and a lot of smoke - NO explosion. I've done it w/Red Dot - used in shotguns AND pistols - and the results are wholly undramatic. No compression; no deflagration; no BANG! Period.

And I DO shoot compressed loads in the race gun. Try putting 10.8 grains of 3N38 in a .38 Super case and NOT have a compressed load.

7.62foryou · Jul 15, 2009

Next time you have some surplus smokeless propellant, pour a pile of it in the back yard and light it off. You'll get a dull flash and a lot of smoke - NO explosion. I've done it w/Red Dot - used in shotguns AND pistols - and the results are wholly undramatic. No compression; no deflagration; no BANG! Period. I did that when I was 12.

And I DO shoot compressed loads in the race gun. Try putting 10.8 grains of 3N38 in a .38 Super case and NOT have a compressed load.[/QUOTE]

The powder in shotshells are compressed to a specific pressure, most pistol / rifle loads are not. The .223 is sometimes filled to the top and compressed also, my suggestion was for you to try it with a load that isn't designed for it, good luck.

slowburninsteve · Jul 15, 2009

When in doubt, run like hell!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Amici · Jul 15, 2009

7.62foryou said:
The powder in shotshells are compressed to a specific pressure, most pistol / rifle loads are not.

Irrelevant. Unless the shell is contained in a chamber or similar conditions when set off, all you will get is a very dull "pop" as the plastic hull splits and the propellant inefficiently burns. Period.

Next "crisis."

Ammunition in a house fire

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