World's most popular shotgun - the Remington 870!
- Thread starter PALADIN85020
- Start date
For those that claim superiority of the M12 over the 870 please inform us as to why. I've shot both models and though I did notice minor handling differences I didn't notice any mechanical superiority for either model. I would shade the handling to the Winchester side, but not by much.
Will a model 12 outlast an 870? What in your opinion makes it better?
Will a model 12 outlast an 870? What in your opinion makes it better?
Texas Star
US Veteran
Warren Page once wrote an article in Field & Stream about the Browning A-5 and the M-12. He noted that M-12's that have been shot extensively have to be adjusted to compensate for wear.
Because the 870 bolt locks into the barrel, it avoids problems like that. But the M-12 has an adjustment to compensate, I think. Still, Remington used to make a point of that solid lockup, with a PR photo showing how the bolt locked into the barrel. I think I saw that in one of Jack O'Connor's books.
I find the M-12 less liable to short-shucking than the 870, but that may just be me or the fact that M-12's I've shot were well worn-in. I've never handled the Remington M-31 but was very impressed that Don Zutz liked it so well.
I do like the position of the slide release on the Ithaca M-37. It's very handy. I find it a nuisance to turn the M-870 over to get at the slide release. But it'd hurt the gun's looks to have it elsewhere.
Overall, the Wingmaster is probably going to go down in history as the greatest pump gun, ever. Beretta and SKB/S&W have tried to beat it, but to no avail.
It's like the .270 Winchester rifle ctg. It does so well what it's designed to do, sans excess muss and fuss, that it just keeps on enduring.
Because the 870 bolt locks into the barrel, it avoids problems like that. But the M-12 has an adjustment to compensate, I think. Still, Remington used to make a point of that solid lockup, with a PR photo showing how the bolt locked into the barrel. I think I saw that in one of Jack O'Connor's books.
I find the M-12 less liable to short-shucking than the 870, but that may just be me or the fact that M-12's I've shot were well worn-in. I've never handled the Remington M-31 but was very impressed that Don Zutz liked it so well.
I do like the position of the slide release on the Ithaca M-37. It's very handy. I find it a nuisance to turn the M-870 over to get at the slide release. But it'd hurt the gun's looks to have it elsewhere.
Overall, the Wingmaster is probably going to go down in history as the greatest pump gun, ever. Beretta and SKB/S&W have tried to beat it, but to no avail.
It's like the .270 Winchester rifle ctg. It does so well what it's designed to do, sans excess muss and fuss, that it just keeps on enduring.
Bib
Member
I have a 20 ga. made in 1951...got the original owners manual / parts list with it. Back then, the 12, 16 and 20 were all built on the same receiver.
MaximumLawman
Member
I believe the technical term is: "Don't pussy-rack it, ********!" Least that's what I recall them yelling at the range....
Huh? Why do you have to turn it over to get at the slide release?
I will concede that the 870 is a fine pump shotgun, but it just doesn't have the "cool" factor of a Model 12. The Model 12 was probably the most precisely machined from the best materials, closely inspected, and in some cases, hand fitted pump gun ever made. They dominated the trap and skeet scene for years. I guess there are still a bunch of old geezers like me who are still pissed off at Winchester for exterminating a lot of fine guns in that horrible year, 1964.
Another great article, thanks, John.
I've only had one 870, nothing wrong with it, but I am drawn
to the Mossberg 500 and the Rem/A5 guns. But that's just me...
TACC1
I've only had one 870, nothing wrong with it, but I am drawn
to the Mossberg 500 and the Rem/A5 guns. But that's just me...
TACC1
Wingmaster
Member
Its pretty hard to beat a Wingmaster.
Wingmaster
Wingmaster
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The Rem 870 is far from my favorite Shotgun but I did buy one for home defense about 10 years ago. It's one of the Police models with the black synthetic stock, 7 round mag. and Parkerized finish. It is reliable, accurate, decently made, affordable and it just plain works. Certainly not the most comfortable shotgun to shoot, but for home defense it does ALL that I ask from it and would rely on it 100% for self defense.
I also agree that the Win M12 is probably a better gun, but it is discontinued and even if it were available it would likely be quite a bit more money. I would take the Rem 870 over the Mossberg 500 AND although I love the design (bottom feed & eject) and own an Ithaca M37 Featherweight, it's NOT fun to shoot with Buckshot - since the thin wood stock digs in to your shoulder when fired - - - OUCH!!!
I also agree that the Win M12 is probably a better gun, but it is discontinued and even if it were available it would likely be quite a bit more money. I would take the Rem 870 over the Mossberg 500 AND although I love the design (bottom feed & eject) and own an Ithaca M37 Featherweight, it's NOT fun to shoot with Buckshot - since the thin wood stock digs in to your shoulder when fired - - - OUCH!!!
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FishingPilot
US Veteran
If i can only have one gun it would be my 870. This is by far the most versatile gun I have ever or will ever own.
jdh
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I really did try to like the Win 1200 Riot gun I was issued for a short time. Would rather have had the 97 Trench gun kept locked up in the armory. The Chief said no.
The 870s just seemed to withstand the abuse of being locked in a security rack in a patrol car better than anything else.
The 870s just seemed to withstand the abuse of being locked in a security rack in a patrol car better than anything else.
Cooter Brown
Member
Part of the appeal of the Model 12 is that it represents an era of mass production in this country that won't (can't) be repeated. Everything on the gun is machined steel, including the lifter. No stampings anywhere including as far as I know the action bar. When I took my 16 ga. )made in 1915) apart for a cleaning after I got it, I found the lock as solid and nicely finished and put together as all but the highest end double guns. How they made a gun that nice requiring that much machining, even given a lower wage structure, is still baffling.
The 870 represents beginning of another era in manufacturing developed in response to the exigencies brought on by WWII, when the huge scale of production of arms, vehicles, etc. necessitated for one thing the perfection of stamping processes of high quality components. It also benefited from the collective knowledge of half of century of experience with pump guns--one reason for the two action rods.
Shotgun handling dynamics are critical to shooting flying and are individual and subjective. Some prefer the 12, some the 870. I've shot 870s, in 12 and 20, a fair amount. Neither sings to me like my 16 ga. Model 12. I really think they hit the sweet spot with the 16, especially the older ones with the corn cob fore end. I've got a pretty nice english form SxS with excellent balance and handling qualities, and the old M12 handles just as nicely. This is a gun used for upland hunting--handling qualities, balance, would be different on a target or duck gun.
The trend for the last 20 years in the upland community has been toward lighter more dynamically handling guns, and the sub gage model 12s and 37s are very popular now.
So to some degree the 870 vs. 12 debate is a matter of nostalgia and aesthetics, to some degree a matter of where you approach the issue as far as intended use of the gun.
OLDSTER
Member
Worlds best shotgun
Agree. The 870 is ONE OF the worlds greatest shotguns; the other being it's brother, the 1100
Agree. The 870 is ONE OF the worlds greatest shotguns; the other being it's brother, the 1100
HardShell
Member
I would tend to agree.
(That's all of them but a couple of old bird guns, a recent bullpup conversion, and a Serbu Super Shorty still waiting on its stamp...
)
Old Corp
Member
Cut my teeth on an 870 - it was my first 'good' gun, replacing a very used Iver Johnson single shot that kicked like a mule.
When I started on the PD, the issue shotguns were a mix of High Standards and Win. 1200's. The High Standards were MUCH smoother than the sorta-chintzy, rotating bolt 1200's.
The High Standards and Win. 1200's were eventually replaced with a mix of S&W 916's (?) and Rem. 870's.
The Remingtons held up MUCH better.
Eventually, the 870 was the only issued shotgun, and still is. They're all equipped with a Blackhawk forend that houses a high-intensity LED light activated by a pressure switch under the fingertips. Great setup.
My HD shotgun is the 870 Marine Magnum. Have put about 300 rounds through it and it's barely starting to get broken in.
Somehow I came to accumulate a very impressive supply of 00 Buck and slug loads.
When I started on the PD, the issue shotguns were a mix of High Standards and Win. 1200's. The High Standards were MUCH smoother than the sorta-chintzy, rotating bolt 1200's.
The High Standards and Win. 1200's were eventually replaced with a mix of S&W 916's (?) and Rem. 870's.
The Remingtons held up MUCH better.
Eventually, the 870 was the only issued shotgun, and still is. They're all equipped with a Blackhawk forend that houses a high-intensity LED light activated by a pressure switch under the fingertips. Great setup.
My HD shotgun is the 870 Marine Magnum. Have put about 300 rounds through it and it's barely starting to get broken in.
Somehow I came to accumulate a very impressive supply of 00 Buck and slug loads.
5thcommjarhead
Member
Blackhawk forend?
That Blackhawk forend seemed like it would be a pretty nifty widget for my tactical 870 but I can't find it on the Blackhawk website. Is it for LEO use only?
That Blackhawk forend seemed like it would be a pretty nifty widget for my tactical 870 but I can't find it on the Blackhawk website. Is it for LEO use only?
HardShell
Member
If you are talking about the weapon-light forends on some of mine above, they are made by Surefire, not Blackhawk.
Shotgun Forend WeaponLights
Not cheap, but they are available to all (not just LEO/MIL) and can occasionally be found used at good prices. Momentary control in a natural/comfortable location and no tapes/wires/switches to get caught on anything -- I love them.
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