OP
alde
Member
Iggy, Do you cast your own bullets? From what I have read a soft hollow base bullets works well with BP.
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Anybody have a Trapdoor Springfield?
- Thread starter alde
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OP
alde
Member
Yes, I understand the groves can run .462". I got some Missouri Bullets 405 grain RNFP and they are sized to .459". I am just leaving for the gun show in about 5 minutes and I will let you guy know what I find.
OP
alde
Member
Yes, I picked up an mod 1884 rifle with a rod bayonet. It has a nice tight breach lockup and a great looking bore. It also has the better sight. The stock is stamped 1892. The seller had a $650 price tag on it and said he was open to offers as long as they were not too crazy. I asked if $500 was too crazy and he said that's not too crazy at all. It was a great show with some nice prices. I also picked up an almost perfect 29-2 R&R with a 6-1/2" barrel for $750.
I just couldn't let it go for that price. There were a lot of nice Smiths there. I will try to get pictures of both posted tomorrow morning.
model70hunter
Member
I don't have an original rifle but I do have a modern repo. I love single shot rifles but this one is so light (I don't think it weighs more than 6 pounds) that recoil is tooth rattling with anything above gallery loads.
Funny story. I bought this from a Gunbroker auction maybe 5 years ago. Seller started it at $325 and I was the only bidder. In every email arranging payment, shipping etc. he complained about the selling price. Apparently he hoped for it to go a lot higher. I finally offered to cancel the deal and he could relist the rifle but he refused my offer and completed the transaction. It was in brand new condition and probably should have sold for $500 or so..
That is nice looking.
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model70hunter
Member
I have my Grandfathers 1884. I keep wanting to bag a deer with it so I need to take it this year.
I've noticed the prices have dropped on these over the last 5 or so years.
Yes they will shoot a 2.5" 410 shot shell, but it needs to be close due to rifling.
Read the warnings on the 45-70 ammo boxes to make sure you don't get something for an 1895 Marlin.
FYI, I've been told bayonets are not interchangeable between the early and later ones. I've never felt the need to own one. I don't think I'll be fixing bayonets prepping for a charge in the deer woods. On 2nd thought maybe I need one.
I've killed quite a few deer with an 1895 Marlin. The 45-70 is an awesome performer on deer. The big slow moving bullet does not destroy meat like a modern high speed center fire. There is an old saying on the 45-70, you can eat right up to the bullet hole.
Find the Feb 2014 issue ofHandloader, it has some 45-70 loads.
For some of you other gents, it has an article on N-Frame Herret Roper grips by Brian Pearce and a neat story about some early handunners and the 45 colt.
I've noticed the prices have dropped on these over the last 5 or so years.
Yes they will shoot a 2.5" 410 shot shell, but it needs to be close due to rifling.
Read the warnings on the 45-70 ammo boxes to make sure you don't get something for an 1895 Marlin.
FYI, I've been told bayonets are not interchangeable between the early and later ones. I've never felt the need to own one. I don't think I'll be fixing bayonets prepping for a charge in the deer woods. On 2nd thought maybe I need one.
I've killed quite a few deer with an 1895 Marlin. The 45-70 is an awesome performer on deer. The big slow moving bullet does not destroy meat like a modern high speed center fire. There is an old saying on the 45-70, you can eat right up to the bullet hole.
Find the Feb 2014 issue ofHandloader, it has some 45-70 loads.
For some of you other gents, it has an article on N-Frame Herret Roper grips by Brian Pearce and a neat story about some early handunners and the 45 colt.
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.455_Hunter
Member
Sounds like a winner!
The late production guns did not see much use and are perfect for the modern collector/shooter who does not desperately need a "Custer" vintage weapon.
OP
alde
Member
That's me exactly. I just want to have some range fun with a nice old battle rifle. I slugged the bore. It's hard to get a real good reading on the 3 groove rifling but the highest number I came up with was .460". That's a whole lot better than .462" or .464" like I have read they could be.
This is the only Trapdoor Springfield I have ever owned. I have it listed in my inventory as a Allin conversion 45/70 Cadet rifle. I'm no Springfield expert.
I bought it because it looked cool and that's about it.
Since it's out, I'm going to have to shoot it. The rifling is very nice and the gun shoots pretty well although it's been years since I shot it.
You Springfield experts let me know what you think.
I bought it because it looked cool and that's about it.
Since it's out, I'm going to have to shoot it. The rifling is very nice and the gun shoots pretty well although it's been years since I shot it.
You Springfield experts let me know what you think.
Attachments
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Looks like your's is a 1893 vintage Model 1884 rifle.
Determine the age of your TD here.
Springfield Trapdoor Rifles & Carbines
Determine the age of your TD here.
Springfield Trapdoor Rifles & Carbines
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OP
alde
Member
I think I got a pretty nice rifle for the price. I was not able to take pictures yesterday but will try later today. Sometimes my time is not my own.You got a rod Bayonet for $500?!You done GOOD!
He's not wrong there. That's a great price for an uncommon rifle.You got a rod Bayonet for $500?!
JimC
Member
Iggy,
Thanks for the link to the trapdoor dates and info.
FWIW, here's my experience with a trapdoor carbine that I bought from and older gentleman back in the early '90's while still living in NJ.
It was in poor condition and not all there. It was propped up in the corner of his basement!
It had areas of white paint on it that took a lot of time/work to remove.
The trigger was broken, it had no rear sight and the hammer spring was also broken. The saddle ring was missing but the original bar was in place.
I bought a rear sight at a gun show in PA back then which was suppose to be original for a carbine but over the rears I had my doubts. It still on the gun.
The bore is somewhat pitted but not too bad.
The breech block is marked US over Model with 18?? under that. I can't make out the rest of the date.
It shots pretty good with BP loads using a 405 gr. GC lead bullet over 55 gr. of FFg. It was the only bullet I had at the time.
According to the chart and its serial #, 144XXX, it is one of 501 carbines made in 1881.
I replaced the broken parts with reproductions.
I tried selling it a couple of times but due to the condition and the non-original replacement parts, I had no takers.
Thanks for the link to the trapdoor dates and info.
FWIW, here's my experience with a trapdoor carbine that I bought from and older gentleman back in the early '90's while still living in NJ.
It was in poor condition and not all there. It was propped up in the corner of his basement!
It had areas of white paint on it that took a lot of time/work to remove.
The trigger was broken, it had no rear sight and the hammer spring was also broken. The saddle ring was missing but the original bar was in place.
I bought a rear sight at a gun show in PA back then which was suppose to be original for a carbine but over the rears I had my doubts. It still on the gun.
The bore is somewhat pitted but not too bad.
The breech block is marked US over Model with 18?? under that. I can't make out the rest of the date.
It shots pretty good with BP loads using a 405 gr. GC lead bullet over 55 gr. of FFg.
It was the only bullet I had at the time.According to the chart and its serial #, 144XXX, it is one of 501 carbines made in 1881.
I replaced the broken parts with reproductions.
I tried selling it a couple of times but due to the condition and the non-original replacement parts, I had no takers.
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Mine is one I rescued from my Grandpappy's barn. He bought it at the turn of the last century from Bannermans, when he homesteaded out here to Wyoming. He paid $7.50 for it. He never fired it, and it sat in the barn for over 40 years.
He left it in the barn when he abandoned the old homestead and moved to town. I found it and drug it home.
It was rusty and in sad shape. I played with it as a kid and finally put it in the back of the closet.
Years later I remembered it and drug it out again.
I always wanted a Officer's Model TD so back in the 80's, I decided to make a poor man's version.
I found an unfired barrel with some rust in the rifling near the muzzle. Cut the rusted part of the barrel off, remounted the front sight, ground the sling swivel off and reversed the trigger guard, pillar mounted the receiver, and free floated the barrel in a Rinehart-Fajen stock.
It has no value as a collector, but it has turned into my go to rifle for hunting or for fun.
A little 45-70 trivia. At 1000 yards with a 500 grain slug, the mid-range trajectory is 127 feet. Now that's lobbin' them down range...
He left it in the barn when he abandoned the old homestead and moved to town. I found it and drug it home.
It was rusty and in sad shape. I played with it as a kid and finally put it in the back of the closet.
Years later I remembered it and drug it out again.
I always wanted a Officer's Model TD so back in the 80's, I decided to make a poor man's version.
I found an unfired barrel with some rust in the rifling near the muzzle. Cut the rusted part of the barrel off, remounted the front sight, ground the sling swivel off and reversed the trigger guard, pillar mounted the receiver, and free floated the barrel in a Rinehart-Fajen stock.
It has no value as a collector, but it has turned into my go to rifle for hunting or for fun.
A little 45-70 trivia. At 1000 yards with a 500 grain slug, the mid-range trajectory is 127 feet. Now that's lobbin' them down range...
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LoboGunLeather
US Veteran
The Trapdoor Springfields are relatively plentiful and many remain in very good to excellent condition, having sat in National Guard armories for many years before being released for sale to the public. Many will be found with degraded bores due to the use of black powder and mercuric primers followed by inadequate cleaning processes. Usually, as long as the rifling remains strong a little bore pitting does little to degrade performance with cast bullets. The steel used in these is relatively soft by today's standards, so I avoid the use of jacketed bullets in my vintage rifles. Plenty of molds available, and several companies offering cast bullets properly sized and lubed for this cartridge (.459 to .460 diameter meets all requirements I have found with half-a-dozen period rifles).
As with any antique firearms, relative rarity and overall condition (including originality of all parts, finish, etc) will establish values. Plenty of reasonably good "shooter" grade rifles are available well under your price mark. As others have noted, carbines are usually much higher in price.
Be careful about the carbines. Many, many Trapdoor rifles were cut down to resemble carbine specifications over the years. As with any such modifications, this type of alteration pretty much destroys the collector value of any specimen. A quick way to identify many of those cut-down pieces will be the hole remaining at the front of the forend where the rifles' cleaning rods went, which was not present on the original carbines.
Standard load for the rifles was the .45-70-500 (.45 caliber, 70 grains FFg, 500-grain bullet). Standard load for the carbines was the .45-55-405 (.45 caliber, 55 grains FFg, 405 grain bullet). The carbine ammunition was intentionally underloaded due to excessive recoil of the .45-70-500 load in the lighter weight carbines.
I've been handloading and shooting the Trapdoors for over 30 years. Original ammo spec's are easily duplicated with black powder and cast bullets. Pyrodex RS is also useful (meters by volume like black powder, but weight of charges is about 10% less). Smokeless powders are also useful, and I have had good results with IMR-4198.
The Speer manuals and others are useful, having sections on loads specifically for the Trapdoor Springfields at acceptable pressure levels.
There is absolutely no need to exceed original BP pressures with this cartridge. I have killed Rocky Mountain elk with the .45-70-500 loads and seen bullets penetrate from the diaphragm through the chest cavity and break the off-side front shoulder before exiting (about 4 feet of penetration). Very effective caliber on just about any North American game. I generally prefer the lighter bullets (340 to 405 grains) for most shooting; recoil is not unpleasant and performance on game animals is more than adequate.
Feel free to PM me with any questions you may have. I love the Trapdoor Springfield rifles.
As with any antique firearms, relative rarity and overall condition (including originality of all parts, finish, etc) will establish values. Plenty of reasonably good "shooter" grade rifles are available well under your price mark. As others have noted, carbines are usually much higher in price.
Be careful about the carbines. Many, many Trapdoor rifles were cut down to resemble carbine specifications over the years. As with any such modifications, this type of alteration pretty much destroys the collector value of any specimen. A quick way to identify many of those cut-down pieces will be the hole remaining at the front of the forend where the rifles' cleaning rods went, which was not present on the original carbines.
Standard load for the rifles was the .45-70-500 (.45 caliber, 70 grains FFg, 500-grain bullet). Standard load for the carbines was the .45-55-405 (.45 caliber, 55 grains FFg, 405 grain bullet). The carbine ammunition was intentionally underloaded due to excessive recoil of the .45-70-500 load in the lighter weight carbines.
I've been handloading and shooting the Trapdoors for over 30 years. Original ammo spec's are easily duplicated with black powder and cast bullets. Pyrodex RS is also useful (meters by volume like black powder, but weight of charges is about 10% less). Smokeless powders are also useful, and I have had good results with IMR-4198.
The Speer manuals and others are useful, having sections on loads specifically for the Trapdoor Springfields at acceptable pressure levels.
There is absolutely no need to exceed original BP pressures with this cartridge. I have killed Rocky Mountain elk with the .45-70-500 loads and seen bullets penetrate from the diaphragm through the chest cavity and break the off-side front shoulder before exiting (about 4 feet of penetration). Very effective caliber on just about any North American game. I generally prefer the lighter bullets (340 to 405 grains) for most shooting; recoil is not unpleasant and performance on game animals is more than adequate.
Feel free to PM me with any questions you may have. I love the Trapdoor Springfield rifles.
Moosedog:
The only "Allin conversions" were the models of 1865 and 1866. The first was .58 rimfire, the second was .50/70. Yours is a later trapdoor in .45/70.
Cadet rifles had a barrel length of 29 11/16." The infantry model was 32 5/6" and the cavalry carbine was 22".
I sent you a PM on how to measure.
John
Anyone that owns and shoots the H&R replicas should read these:
Gun Blowing up on the line - Page 2
I have read for years that some of the copies had problems.
Gun Blowing up on the line - Page 2
I have read for years that some of the copies had problems.
OP
alde
Member
I slugged my bore tonight and I sure hope I am reading it right. I used a .460 round ball and then put a piece of shim stock of a known thickness around it. I measured it with digital calipers 6 times in different places and came up with .457" groove diameter after deducting 2X the thickness of the shim stock. If that's accurate it should do pretty well with commercial .459" cast bullets. I am going to do the whole thing from scratch again to make sure the slug is ok but it's looking good.
I am going to do the whole thing from scratch again to make sure the slug is ok but it's looking good.Similar threads
