turn of century gutta percha vs hard rubber grips

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john32

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This post is all about early S&W black "plastic" grips - especially as found on 38 DA and new departures. I recently had a man correct me and tell me these were made of "hard rubber", not gutta percha - and that the gutta percha grips were "earlier".

His gun in question was a 2nd model 38 DA, but the grip logo was "S&W" written in a line, within an oval. I had seen many more of these, presumably earlier ones, that were an "S" intertwined with the "W" (almost appearing superimposed), within a true circle.

I'm pretty certain that his grips were incorrect for a 2nd issue 38 DA. I also think he was wrong about "hard rubber" being appropriate for his gun, and that gutta percha was for earlier guns.

1. Would someone kindly straighten me out on the differences between gutta percha and hard rubber (if any) as used on these medium framed, turn-of-century revolvers?

2. Would many parts, including black "plastic" grips, interchange between 38 DA, 32 DA, and their new departure equivalents?
Many thanks,
John
 
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This post is all about early S&W black "plastic" grips - especially as found on 38 DA and new departures. I recently had a man correct me and tell me these were made of "hard rubber", not gutta percha - and that the gutta percha grips were "earlier".

His gun in question was a 2nd model 38 DA, but the grip logo was "S&W" written in a line, within an oval. I had seen many more of these, presumably earlier ones, that were an "S" intertwined with the "W" (almost appearing superimposed), within a true circle.

I'm pretty certain that his grips were incorrect for a 2nd issue 38 DA. I also think he was wrong about "hard rubber" being appropriate for his gun, and that gutta percha was for earlier guns.

1. Would someone kindly straighten me out on the differences between gutta percha and hard rubber (if any) as used on these medium framed, turn-of-century revolvers?

2. Would many parts, including black "plastic" grips, interchange between 38 DA, 32 DA, and their new departure equivalents?
Many thanks,
John
 
Hello John,

Welcome to the board. The block letter S&W grips you describe were used on the early S&W 1st model Single Action "Baby Russian" guns. I have never seen or heard of them being shipped with the Double Action guns. That doesn't mean it couldn't have happened, because S&W never seemed to waste anything, and if there was something lying around to be used they would. It was not normal to use the block letter grips on any double action. The 2nd model 38 DA guns were shipped 2 or 3 years after they stopped using that grip on the single action guns. They would fit though as they were the same grip size. 38 SA, DA, Safety Hammerless, and early I frame 32 round butt hand ejectors had the same grip frame size & shape. All three of the 32 top breaks had a different size and or shape and none of the 32s were interchangable with each other.

None of S&W grips were truely made of Gutta Purcha. It is my understanding that Gutta Percha was made from a plant extract from Asia. None of S&Ws grips were made that way. They were I understand actually a primitive form of plastic. They were called hard rubber.

Mark
 
An evening with Google finds that real gutta percha is made from the latex of particular trees native to Malaysia. It is thermoplastic and can be heated and molded to shape.

Hard rubber is made by heavy vulcanization of India rubber which is based on the latex of different trees.

One article said that gutta percha is not brittle, while we know that old black grips are very brittle. Which makes them likely to be true hard rubber, Colt advertising of the day notwithstanding.
 
Thank you Mark and Jim,
This is such a large forum that a guy could knock around in it for awhile before getting to know folks very well. I have specialized interest in model 1 S&Ws, but have had passing interests in early 38 DA, 38 new departures, and even M&P HEs.

1. With Mark's input, I am now clear that the grips on the 38 DA were non-original replacements probably taken off an earlier SA. At my questioning, the seller first said the right grip panel had non-matching serial, then later said it had no serial. I'm glad I passed it by.

2. The gutta percha vs hard rubber issue seems pretty fuzzy. I followed Jim's lead and googled rubber and gutta percha. Seems there are 100s of tree species in SE Asia alone that provide natural latex, which is the basis for rubber and "gutta percha". The latter was the original name given to products from one specific species in Malaysia, but was later applied to products from several related species.

The word "plastic" is a generic term, virtually anything that has polymerized to become a solid.
Although most of our plastics and rubbers used today are synthetic derivatives from petroleum, it is apparent that natural latex products were in their heyday back in the pre-petroleum economy when these guns were being made.

I'm getting the sense that, through one processing variation or another, and from any of 100s of possible Asian or South American tree species, these grips were probably based on natural latex.

I might be competely wrong in that conclusion, and would be happy to learn more about it. I can see how it might be better to stay away from terms like "plasic", "rubber", and even gutta percha, because they are too generic, or too specific, perhaps for what S&W was actually doing in 1890. I'd like to know more about this.
John
 
The old S&W factory daily production logs for the stocking department, that attached the stocks to the guns, used the term " black hard rubber" or "mottled" to specify the colored hard rubber stocks attached to each gun. (Walnut, Rosewood, Ivory, Pearl, etc were terms also used, depending on what material a pair of stocks were made from .) I've never seen the term "Gutta Percha" used in any S&W records. Ed
 
Gutta percha is commonly used with reference to the black rubber grips on Colt SAA revolvers. It might not have been used in Smith and Wesson records, but the composition of black grips between the manufacturers would be similar.
 
The addition of sulfur under heat is termed vulcanization, which was the process of making both hard and soft rubber. The process required up to 30 percent sulfur by volume. That is the telltale smell that makes it possible to determine whether a set of S&W stocks was hard rubber or reproduction plastic. I believe that Gutta-percha was the material used to mold the original hard cases for the Model 1 S&W, but by the late 1800s, it was pretty much out of favor and replaced by refined rubber.
 
I just watched Roy's video in this section and was interested to learn that the Gutta-Percha cases made for the Model 1 revolver was actually made from molded shellac.

Leads me to believe that lots of early rubbers and latex derived plastics may have been called Gutta-percha, but were really not. I would be interested if anyone with a Colt could do the smell test for traces of sulfur?? If so, they would not be Gutta-percha either.
 
Gutta-percha is derived from plants,whereas shellac resin comes from bugs. My Dad was a dentist (root canal specialist) and used gutta percha to fill root canals. It was mixed from two parts,both a kind of paste/putty and would form a pretty solid mass quickly. kind of like JB weld does today. Interesting stuff. It did leave a mess on you fingers,though. :)
 
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