HOUSTON RICK
Member
It is hard to beat a CZ bolt action 22, but choosing between the two in the original post -all else being equal - the Winchester.
.22 bolt action rifle question
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AJ
US Veteran
It is only hard to beat a CZ bolt action in a CZ owner's mind. Any rifle in the .22 category will beat a CZ at 50 yards, either irons or scoped.
bmcgilvray
SWCA Member
I'd consider the Winchester Model 69A to be the better rifle when comparing it to the Remington Model 511 though I hold the Remington "Five Teen" rifles in very high esteem.
$400 seems pricy though.
I'd love to sneak up on a Winchester 69A, the earlier variant wiht the cocking piece on the bolt, right after I find the best Remington Model 511 for the money.
Recently replaced the Remington Model 510 and Model 512 for the second time since the two I shot when I was a kid.
A good ol' scroungy yet really accurate Model 510.
A nicer than usual Model 512.
$400 seems pricy though.
I'd love to sneak up on a Winchester 69A, the earlier variant wiht the cocking piece on the bolt, right after I find the best Remington Model 511 for the money.
Recently replaced the Remington Model 510 and Model 512 for the second time since the two I shot when I was a kid.
A good ol' scroungy yet really accurate Model 510.
A nicer than usual Model 512.
silentflyer
Member
Take a look at the older Mossberg .22 bolt action guns, they are nice and the target versions all tack drivers at reasonable cost.
I have a much used Remington 510 single shot and a like new 512 tube
feed. I also have a pretty nice Winchester 69A. All three are very accurate.
If I could only have one it would be the 69A. The answer to your question
is to go for the bundle deal of course. You can't have too many old
classic .22 bolt action rifles.
feed. I also have a pretty nice Winchester 69A. All three are very accurate.
If I could only have one it would be the 69A. The answer to your question
is to go for the bundle deal of course. You can't have too many old
classic .22 bolt action rifles.
Biggfoot44
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Of those two , get the Rem 511 .
gregintenn
Member
Both Remingtons and Winchesters are of amazing quality in the time frame these were produced.
Both are nice vintage .22 rifles.
The price marked on them kind of reflects the popularity of each, though either will do exactly the same job for you.
Winchester always seems to draw a premium price.
Both will occasionally come down with loose bolt handle problems,,the Remington series it seems more than the Winchester in my experience.
Both have a bolt handle that is a separate part that is staked into place. Once staked in place it is considered a factory assembly with the bolt and those handles were not sold as a separate part AFAIK.
When loose, the handle usually just swings a few degrees back and forth from it's proper position. Though some can come completely undone and be removed.
The usual 'fix' is to re-stake them in place.
The Remington,,you can see the single large center punch mark on the under side on the bolt lug that the handle inserts into. A heavy wack with a large center punch and hammer with the handle posed in the right position (slightly swept back) and the lug backed up on a solid surface like a bench vise flat will usually do it.
But they can come loose again.
Soldering them back in place or even Loctite along with the centerpunch stake mark will take care of them.
The Winchester uses one or sometimes 2 stake marks of a chisel shape spanning the joint of the handle and the lug to do the same thing.
same results and usually the same after results and repair to finally fix it for sure.
Some I've seen have used a blind pin to secure the handle, a couple a D&T and a small set screw.
Lots of ways to fix them.
The square lug base on the bolt that you are staling the handle back in to is the locking lug on the action as it sits tight against the recv'r wall cut out.
The price marked on them kind of reflects the popularity of each, though either will do exactly the same job for you.
Winchester always seems to draw a premium price.
Both will occasionally come down with loose bolt handle problems,,the Remington series it seems more than the Winchester in my experience.
Both have a bolt handle that is a separate part that is staked into place. Once staked in place it is considered a factory assembly with the bolt and those handles were not sold as a separate part AFAIK.
When loose, the handle usually just swings a few degrees back and forth from it's proper position. Though some can come completely undone and be removed.
The usual 'fix' is to re-stake them in place.
The Remington,,you can see the single large center punch mark on the under side on the bolt lug that the handle inserts into. A heavy wack with a large center punch and hammer with the handle posed in the right position (slightly swept back) and the lug backed up on a solid surface like a bench vise flat will usually do it.
But they can come loose again.
Soldering them back in place or even Loctite along with the centerpunch stake mark will take care of them.
The Winchester uses one or sometimes 2 stake marks of a chisel shape spanning the joint of the handle and the lug to do the same thing.
same results and usually the same after results and repair to finally fix it for sure.
Some I've seen have used a blind pin to secure the handle, a couple a D&T and a small set screw.
Lots of ways to fix them.
The square lug base on the bolt that you are staling the handle back in to is the locking lug on the action as it sits tight against the recv'r wall cut out.
You didn't say if you were a collector or just looking for a low cost, accurate bolt action 22 rimfire.
If it's the latter, I have a Ruger American Rifle in carbine length barrel. Pretty much dime sized groups at 25 yds. Not much more than the price for a few years old used gun.
For a few bucks more the CZ family of guns can do that at 50yds.
If it's the latter, I have a Ruger American Rifle in carbine length barrel. Pretty much dime sized groups at 25 yds. Not much more than the price for a few years old used gun.
For a few bucks more the CZ family of guns can do that at 50yds.
The Winchester Model 69A rifle is probably my favorite .22 rifle; it also happened to be the first gun I ever owned at age 11.
I devoted a chapter to it in my book 101 Classic Firearms.
I contributed an article on it, which you can find on this forum here:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/firear...es-updated-12-03-12-a.html?99090=#post1080582
Also, you can see my photo album on the 69 series here:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/member...ster-model-69-rifles-and-their-siblings-.html
Hope this helps.
John
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AJ
US Veteran
The CZ's are in the same league as the old Mossbergs. The are good 25 yard rifles. They shoot fairly well at 25 yards, but when you begin to stretch out the range to 50 or more yards their accuracy begins to be lacking.
Many years ago I read a pamphlet on .22 target rifles. It discussed Tier 1 and Tier 2 target rifles. In the Tier 1 rifles were Winchester 52's and Remington 37's, these were considered true target rifles. In Tier 2 were Winchester 75's and Remington 513T's, as junior level target rifles.
I started with a Mossberg 44US target rifle and I shot at 25 yards. Thought it was great. Then I read about the 52 Winchester's. I was able to buy a 52D Winchester from CMP for $350 (IIRC). The difference in accuracy was night and day. For a while I also shot other Mossbergs (144's and 44US's), Winchester 75's, CZ (452 and the Trainer) and a slew of other 40's/50's target rifles. None could run with the 52's. I then got into the true heavy barreled target rifles, Winchester 52 A's, B's, C's, D's & E's, Remington 37's & 40X's, Anschutz 54's Walther UIT's, Martini's Mk 1,2,3,4 & 5's and a few others.
A good example is on the RimFire Central 50 Iron Sight Board ( Benchrest 50 yd. Iron Sight Matches with NRA A-23/5 target - RimfireCentral.com Forums ) and see what they shoot. I am listed there as usmc69 , have not shot the forum for a while as I have moved onto other types of shooting, but I am still listed.
If any of the forum members are in the Sebastian, Florida area, I would be happy to meet and shoot with them. I have gotten rid of most of my plinker class .22's, but do have a couple left.
I have a 511P , receiver rear with a added globe front sight . I has rime fire scope grooves so it most have been near to new when I first shoot it . Its got a good trigger and is pretty accurate but I have never wrong it out like my savage bv . For 200 I buy the remmy but rather split the difference and buy a savage BV Sorry unless the old 22lr was a heavy barrel match model not any interest in old 22lr .
AJ
US Veteran
What I am trying to get at is this......my 513T is in the same family as the 511. With good sights or scope (if it is grooved) it should be capable of the same type groups. I have shot a 200-16X with the 513T I have. This is a 50 yard course of fire on an A23-5 target. One spotter target and four for score. Max is a 200-20X.
If the OP has the desire and the time he could look for a standard barrel Pre-A or A model Winchester 52. These are great and can be found for $4-500 with sights.
The one thing about used rifles, especially ones that were passed around in JROTC and youth clubs, is you don't know how much damage may have occurred to the bore or crown from cleaning abuse. I've had a Remington 37, a couple Winchester 52D's, Kimber heavy barrel, H&R 12, Mossberg 44US, 144, Remington 540X, 513, and at one time had eight Remington 40X 22's. The accuracy varied from fair to fantastic even among some of the same make and models. None of those out shot my heavy barrel Anschutz 54 guns, but the H&R and a few of the 40X's would shoot just as good. With a little trigger work, some of the CZ's I owned would shoot just about as well, but the trigger was the biggest issue compared to the more expensive target guns. But if I wanted a to level benchrest rifle, I'd have a custom rifle built on a 40X or custom action.
AJ
US Veteran
If you pay attention to muzzle wear, bore erosion, barrel bulges and crown abuse then you stand a chance of getting a decent shooter. If you don't then that is your mistake and tough luck. I usually look for rifles that show use not abuse. The rack queens in the shooting clubs and ROTC units usually were real nice looking because they were not good shooters. The rifles with some wear (not abuse) were the shooters and all knew it, hence the wear from constant use.
I have had Annies that would outshoot my Winchesters and 40X's. But I happen to like Winchesters more than Annies and 40X's. The only reason I keep a 40X is the fact it is a USMC PROPERTY 40X. I am down to two 52's a D and an E. Will keep them until the Will says they go to my Grandsons. Both have 1 oz. triggers on them.
Have yet to see a CZ that would fall into a one hole shooter at 50 yards.
A true custom rifle built on any action will cost way more than the money we have been talking about here. A Turbo or one of that nature starts about $3K IIRC.
I have had Annies that would outshoot my Winchesters and 40X's. But I happen to like Winchesters more than Annies and 40X's. The only reason I keep a 40X is the fact it is a USMC PROPERTY 40X. I am down to two 52's a D and an E. Will keep them until the Will says they go to my Grandsons. Both have 1 oz. triggers on them.
Have yet to see a CZ that would fall into a one hole shooter at 50 yards.
A true custom rifle built on any action will cost way more than the money we have been talking about here. A Turbo or one of that nature starts about $3K IIRC.
I am a Winchester .22 nut, so my opinion is biased. There are so many variations of the 69 and 69A rifles it is near confusing. There is the standard models with iron sights and several with different models of peep sight. Besides the standard rifle there including the Target, Match, Junior Target Shooters Special and a few Scoped models. The Match and Target have 6 lands and grooves instead of 4 and are chambered in Long Rifle only. I have a few of them and haven't scratched the edge of the model 69s. There is a book currently being written on the 69/69As and all their differences. It is supposed to come out sometime this year and I am waiting patiently.
My choice would be the 69A that I don't think is that over priced, but I am addicted to Winchester .22s.
My choice would be the 69A that I don't think is that over priced, but I am addicted to Winchester .22s.
Thanks again to all that replied. The history on the Winchester is especially helpful. I will take a closer look at the specifics of the rifles in question and update with the outcome.
******UPDATED*********
Checked them again today. The Winchester is actually marked $499 and it appears to be a "regular " model 69A as the barrel is marked 'short, long, long rifle'. It does have the hooded front sight with a rear peep sight (not Lyman type). Also has 2 mounting blocks for a scope on top of the barrel, I assume the tip off type. 1 sling mount on the fore end, no sling mount on butt & no evidence of ever having one. Shop had no further history on that particular rifle, best price $440. I will pass.
The Remington looks lightly used but not abused, will clean up nicely, $150, sold.
Thanks for all the replies and information.
******UPDATED*********
Checked them again today. The Winchester is actually marked $499 and it appears to be a "regular " model 69A as the barrel is marked 'short, long, long rifle'. It does have the hooded front sight with a rear peep sight (not Lyman type). Also has 2 mounting blocks for a scope on top of the barrel, I assume the tip off type. 1 sling mount on the fore end, no sling mount on butt & no evidence of ever having one. Shop had no further history on that particular rifle, best price $440. I will pass.
The Remington looks lightly used but not abused, will clean up nicely, $150, sold.
Thanks for all the replies and information.
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