Original "assault" rifle ??

Andyd · Nov 17, 2020

The definition of an assault rifle includes a pistol grip, making the Russian Federov Avtomat of 1916 ineligible.

The STGW44 was preceeded by the less common and very costly FG42 , the Fallschirmjägergewehr 42 by two years, thus making the FG42 the first assault weapon that was issued, if we want to allow the battle rifle calibre into the game. The first rifle with a pistol grip was invented in Liege, Belgium in 1840 by Delvigne.

Jessie · Nov 17, 2020

gwpercle said:
My vote goes to that "Damn Yankee Rifle you load on Sunday and shoot all week " ...
The 1860 Henry Lever Action ...15 shot capacity , rapid loading .

I’ve heard that being applied to the Spencer also. Plus it held the same number of cartridges as the week is long.

Ivan the Butcher · Nov 17, 2020

Andyd said:
The definition of an assault rifle includes a pistol grip, making the Russian Federov Avtomat of 1916 ineligible.

The original definition has no pistol grip requirement. As to 6.5 Japanese and 6.5 Carcano being a full powered rifle rounds? Not compared to 7.62x54! I have shot many rounds of all 3, NO COMPARISON at all! Besides there were and really are no rules, just legal definitions and other distortions by the media. Originally nobody set out to create a class of assault weapons, they WERE TRYING to create a better infantry weapon to kill the enemy. Anything that works is acceptable. We look back years and wars later and say that this or that breaks the rules? That's just crazy talk!

(some would say that 6.5 Carcano was not a Main Battle Rifle round, it was designed to kill Austrians at 300 meters and go through all their heavy winter clothing. It was a high capacity rifle [6 rounds] and small size and light recoil.)

Remember the BAR, John M. Browning, didn't really consider it a Machine Gun. (and he of all people should know!) But it sure is considered one by every government on the planet and everyone involved with one in combat!

Words, terms, and definitions do matter! Many people use the words and terms with no idea of the meaning or correct usage. Assault Rifle is one of those terms!

Ivan

If I smack you up side the head with a Trapdoor Springfield, I assaulted you with a rifle, but does that make it an Assault Rifle?
ITB

Buford57 · Nov 17, 2020

Ivan

If I smack you up side the head with a Trapdoor Springfield, I assaulted you with a rifle, but does that make it an Assault Rifle?

Actually once contact is made, that's battery. A one man rifle battery. That's pretty good.

Old_Cop · Nov 17, 2020

Bring it to the turn-in, you'll get a $100 Walmart card!

ggibson511960 · Nov 17, 2020

OLDSTER said:
Winchester Model 1907. Grandfather of assault rifles. ??

Doesn't qualify without a bayonet lug. Seriously, I used to deer hunt with a fellow who used one of these beasts. It was effectively a single shot, one shot and a jam, but a nice well made gun from the walnut and forged steel era.

vt_shooter · Nov 17, 2020

Off topic a bit, but do you ever ponder the magical power of the phrases "assault rifle" or "assault weapon"? Because the Constitution does not include any mention of "assault rifle/weapon", nor any limitation of what an assault rifle/weapon can be, that magical phrase can be used by government to label any weapon it seeks to ban, and the 2A cannot be used as a defense. It's magic.

Drm50 · Nov 17, 2020

ggibson511960 said:
Doesn't qualify without a bayonet lug. Seriously, I used to deer hunt with a fellow who used one of these beasts. It was effectively a single shot, one shot and a jam, but a nice well made gun from the walnut and forged steel era.

There was nothing wrong with the 1907 Win. If one is jamming it’s what you call a personal problem. There were a few made for France in WW1. Employed mainly as armament in early biplanes.
Originally 32SL & 35SL dropped for 351Win. Not far off from the new Win 350L. The O7 saw lots of Law enforcement duty and prison guard guns. Bigger version 401win was never as popular. I think Vern Miller one of the 1930s mobsters was killed by FBI agent with a 1907 Win. Let’s not forget Rem 8 & 81 rifle. About same era but with more horse power. One was used in Bonnie & Clyde ambush. They were fixed box but they had police models with detachable magazines. They to had limited military contracts in WW1. Another JM Browning design.

k22fan · Nov 17, 2020

Washington State law defines assault rifle as any and all semi-automatic rifles. That includes great grandpa's tube magazine .22 rimfire so to answer the question our wonderful elected officials would need to know what the first auto-loading rifle was. It's not a bad question and not entirely off topic.

I would love to see the current U.S. Supreme Court rule on whether Washington's law complies with D.C. v. Heller. Justice Thomas would love to write the opinion.

hoosierone · Nov 17, 2020

The term "assault rifle" is made up. Back when the British were shooting at us with a Brown Bess, we were being "assaulted" but were they called "assault rifles"?

surfgun · Nov 17, 2020

hoosierone said:
The term "assault rifle" is made up. Back when the British were shooting at us with a Brown Bess, we were being "assaulted" but were they called "assault rifles"?

Nope Brown Bess is a smooth Bore. No rifling to be found.

lawandorder · Nov 17, 2020

Sorry Vern Miller was beaten, tortured and strangled. Body dumped in a ditch.

Vernon C. Miller - Wikipedia

ISCS Yoda · Nov 17, 2020

nor any limitation of what an assault rifle/weapon can be, that magical phrase can be used by government to label any weapon it seeks to ban, and the 2A cannot be used as a defense. It's magic.

Just as an aside, the terms rifle, pistol, gun, or even firearm are NOT in the 2nd Amendment. The term is "arms".

If you look up the definition of "arms" in the 18th century you will find that the definition was, more or less, anything that a person wears or carries for his/her defense, or, and this is the best part, "takes in his/her hands as a weapon". So, from a legal perspective, it matters not one hoot what the State of Washington calls an "assault rifle" except and unless judges, or Justices, redefine the term "arms".

This is certainly off the original topic so I'll stop there.

But I do appreciate learning the history of one Vern Miller. Fascinating criminal from the Depression era. A nasty guy indeed!

Valmet · Nov 17, 2020

BLACKHAWKNJ said:
The 6.5 Japanese was a rifle round, comparable to the 6.5 Carcano. The StG 44 was the first "official" assault rifle.

In diameter, yes, but ballistically the 6.5 Jap offers more than the Carcano. The 6.5 Jap was ahead of its time so to speak. While a late-1890s design, its WWI-WWII era loading with the long, spitzer bullet is kind-of akin to the Russian 5.45. That isn’t to say the 6.5 Carcano is chopped liver.

Mike SC Hunter · Nov 17, 2020

There is no such thing!

k22fan · Nov 17, 2020

ISCS Yoda said:
[...] So, from a legal perspective, it matters not one hoot what the State of Washington calls an "assault rifle" except and unless judges, or Justices, redefine the term "arms". [...]

While how the state of Washington defines "assault rifle" is unlikely to influence how any court outside of Washington interprets the 2nd Amendment, it does matter a few hoots. In WA all semi-auto rifle transfers require the same paperwork as modern pistols with the same waiting period. Also we have to prove we took a special training class for semi-auto rifles, and unlike other long guns, persons aged 18 through 20 can not buy them. These changes to the law were made by a citizen's initiative that was largely passed by the masses in urban areas. I suspect most of them did not look beyond the TV commercials or read what the the changes to the law would actually be.

Truckman · Nov 18, 2020

Imissedagain said:
Lackland in '66 ...the entire line of recruits opened up full auto in unison with carbines.
If it wasn't for that and the roller rink with pop music basic might have been really boring.

You too?...I got there 1/3/66, and I remember cutting loose with five rounds full-auto with a worn out M-16, but the roller rink escaped me...

...Ben

PALADIN85020 · Nov 18, 2020

Arm said:
I agree, this was a true assault weapon used by the German Army.

Actually, the Stg44 was originally called the MP44 - a "submachinegun" subterfuge as to its real character in deference to der fuehrer, who was initially against the concept. When he finally actually saw one demonstrated, he caved and re-named it the Sturmgewehr 44.

John

This is an original MP44.

hoosierone · Nov 18, 2020

surfgun said:
Nope Brown Bess is a smooth Bore. No rifling to be found.

Agreed, in those days it was an "Assault Musket".

BAM-BAM · Nov 18, 2020

PALADIN85020 said:
Actually, the Stg44 was originally called the MP44 - a "submachinegun" subterfuge as to its real character in deference to der fuehrer, who was initially against the concept. When he finally actually saw one demonstrated, he caved and re-named it the Sturmgewehr 44.

John

This is an original MP44.

IIRC the definition includes the use of a "intermediate power cartridge"... aka more than a pistol round and less than the full battle rifle round.

Which eliminates the BAR introduced in 1918 .............. which per Wiki was "designed to be carried by an infantryman during an "assault advance"........

We could also add the Civil War Spencer Carbine to the mix....it allowed small cavalry units to engage/hold off larger infantry units.... like the first day at the Battle of Gettysburg

Original "assault" rifle ??

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