Taurus vs. Smith

lihpster · Feb 2, 2021

I have a friend who has a Taurus 650 CIA. Ever since he's owned it (purchased new), he has had problems with it. Shoots .38 just fine, but .357 locks up the cylinder within one cylinder. He has sent it back to Taurus twice and both times they just told him to clean it. I finally asked to see the gun after the last time we went shooting and inspected it. The .357 bullets were walking out of the cases due to recoil. Not sure if that's the only problem the gun had but that was the one it had then. My question is, have any of you had the same issues with a 640 Smith?

BTW the ammo in question was new factory ammo. Budget brand but new. They weren't crimped very well and the bullets weren't seated very deep. The cannelure was showing. I told him to get some good ammo, correctly seated and crimped and try it out. Haven't heard back.

CajunBass · Feb 2, 2021

I'd say he has an ammo problem, not a gun problem.

lihpster · Feb 2, 2021

CajunBass said:
I'd say he has an ammo problem, not a gun problem.

Ammo from the first two times (when it went back) was good Federal. I know cause I bought it for him. I'm sure the last time was probably the ammo but the first 2 times weren't. Unless 3 different boxes of ammo from 2 different manufacturers had the same problem. Unlikely.

GaryHK · Feb 2, 2021

I posted this earlier today in another discussion. Keep in mind that I'm not in the habit of bashing manufactures.

GaryHK said:
I've bought 3 Taurus pistols in my lifetime...a PT 99, a PT 58, and a PT908

All had feeding and ejecting issues.

My conclusion is a follows:
If you don't care about fit and finish, get a Taurus
If you can accept a higher than normal failure rate, get a Taurus
If you don't mind somewhat sketchy material and steel quality, get a Taurus
If you don't plan on carrying it or betting your life on it, get a Taurus

Some people just knock Taurus for the sake of knocking them without owning one. I'm not one of those people. Personally I will never buy one again.

If you need this style of pistol, please buy a pre rail Beretta 92FS

rockquarry · Feb 2, 2021

I've heard good reports about Taurus but have never owned one and probably won't. I'd spend a little more money and get an S&W. They are generally of very good quality, easier to sell or trade, more desirable, and hold value well.

misswired · Feb 2, 2021

Now a Days.....the Taurus myth is pretty much debunked...

merl67 · Feb 2, 2021

I have had a few Taurus autoloaders first was a compact nine don't remember the model. It would not run good with any ammo I tried. Had a friend that had same one. He wound up sending his back it was better when he finally got it back still had issues. I had a TCP 380 the pins wanted to vibrate out after a box of ammo. I had a early 92 that was a great gun no issues whatsoever. I've had a few of their revolvers no issues with those.

TX-Dennis · Feb 2, 2021

I have had several Taurus handguns. All mine have been 100% reliable. You hear the sad songs from some folks, but that has not been my experience. I can say the same for my S&W handguns - also 100% reliable.

I did have one older 9mm that was included in the "settlement" guns. I decided not to send it back because it was so reliable and easy to shoot. After about 20,000 rounds down the pipe it experienced a broken extractor. Taurus would not repair it under warranty. They would only replace it. It took awhile, but the replacement pistol arrived eventually, and it, too, has been 100% reliable. I won't count a worn out extractor against any brand after 20,000 rounds fired. It's normal maintenance.

stansdds · Feb 3, 2021

lihpster said:
I have a friend who has a Taurus 650 CIA. Ever since he's owned it (purchased new), he has had problems with it. Shoots .38 just fine, but .357 locks up the cylinder within one cylinder. He has sent it back to Taurus twice and both times they just told him to clean it. I finally asked to see the gun after the last time we went shooting and inspected it. The .357 bullets were walking out of the cases due to recoil. Not sure if that's the only problem the gun had but that was the one it had then. My question is, have any of you had the same issues with a 640 Smith?

BTW the ammo in question was new factory ammo. Budget brand but new. They weren't crimped very well and the bullets weren't seated very deep. The cannelure was showing. I told him to get some good ammo, correctly seated and crimped and try it out. Haven't heard back.

I had issues with my 640-1 when firing what amounted to 38 Special +P loads using magnum brass and plated bullets. I could not get adequate case neck tension and crimp and those bullets would pull from the cases during recoil. I have not had problems with premium factory ammo, but the "white box" stuff may be in a white box for a reason.

rockquarry · Feb 3, 2021

stansdds said:
I had issues with my 640-1 when firing what amounted to 38 Special +P loads using magnum brass and plated bullets. I could not get adequate case neck tension and crimp and those bullets would pull from the cases during recoil. I have not had problems with premium factory ammo, but the "white box" stuff may be in a white box for a reason.

There may be some advantages to plated bullets, but it seems there are at least as many drawbacks.

Andyd · Feb 3, 2021

I had the same problem with an older Colt Lawman, so the problem is not limited to Taurus.
I had one Taurus recently that I imported from Germany, where it had been distributed by Hammerli, Tiengen and that model 83 was smoother than I expect a S&W M10 to be.

smoothshooter · Feb 3, 2021

Based on my experience of buying several of each over the last few years, I would say Taurus puts out a better gun than Smith does nowadays. Especially revolvers.
Smith has had some real problems with improperly clocked barrels and barrel/cylinder gaps the last few years.
My Taurus 85 UL .38 Special 2” barrel came out of the box with a double-action trigger pull that is better than anything a J-frame Smith could ever have even with custom work. It has been shot well over a thousand times. Accuracy is excellent.

steelslaver · Feb 3, 2021

I have 2 Tausus revolvers and old 22 lr and a newer 431 5 shot 44 special that works as well and as smoothly as my comparable S&W L frame 44 models 69, 696 no dash, my 396 and my 296. The 22 has a stiff trigger and that is all that is wrong with it.

lihpster · Feb 3, 2021

stansdds and Andyd thank you for seeing my question and not just the title.

colt_saa · Feb 3, 2021

Between my and my families personal firearms and the ones I use when teaching, I have many Smith and Wesson Centennial revolvers chambered in 9MM, 38 SUPER, 356TSW. 38 Special and 357 Magnum.

We also have 3 of the Taurus 650/850 CIA style revolvers

Generally, overall, the Smith & Wessons are prettier. But when it comes to reliability all have been about equal. I gave my Mother a Total Titanium 650 for her carry firearm. I would not have done that if I had doubts about reliability

As you have already noticed, one important thing to look for is bullet pull. Especially if you are shooting white/yellow/green box bargain ammunition or foreign ammunition. This is doubly important with the alloy, Scandium or Titanium light weight versions of these revolvers

You said this has been going on ever since he owned the revolver. Did this occur on his first visit to the range?

When shooting that cylinder full of 357 Magnums that jams things up, was it at the start of the shooting session? Or after a box or two of 38 specials?

My thinking is that bargain brand 38s might have left the cylinder dirty enough that proper function of the longer 357 Magnums was now impeded. Now it is highly unusual that a few boxes can get the cylinder this dirty, but if your buddy did not scrub the crud ring out of the cylinder, it might have accumulated across several range visits. This may be the reason Taurus is telling him to clean the revolver thoroughly

Also when shooting 357 Magnum from a short barrel, there is the possibility of getting a flake of unburned powder under the ejector star

Also, when sending the firearm in to Taurus, did he tell them what ammunition these jams occurred with? Like wise, did he ask what kind of ammunition they tested with?

lihpster · Feb 3, 2021

colt_saa: Happened first time out. 2 cylinders of .38. Sent it in. Second time was right after it came back. That one started with the .357. Locked up on first cylinder. Tried .38s and all good. Ammo was: .38 was Magtech FMJs. .357 was Federal Hydra Shock. I think there was something wrong with it and it just took 2 times for them to fix it. Although they just said they cleaned it. This last time I think it was the ammo. We'll see when I can get him to go shoot it with proper ammo. And no, I don't think any mention was made of type of ammo except factory new. He didn't think to ask them and I'm not sure if they even fired it. They may have just cleaned it up.
The funny thing is I urged him to buy a Smith but the Taurus was less expensive. I've been trying to explain to him that you don't go cheap on tools, weapons or women.

colt_saa · Feb 3, 2021

Well, I agree. It does not sound line an ammunition issue.

It does sound like something is in too tight of a tolerance. I don't suppose the B/C gap was measured before sending it in the first time?

Well if it is resolved this time, that is what is important

Most of the Taurus purchases I made were firearms that Smith & Wesson did not offer. For example . . . a 19 ounce, 5 shot, 45 Long Colt chambered L-frame size snubnose.

If I am in winter clothing(not that it means much in Florida), this is a favorite for me to carry

I just think the Taurus Model 450 has great visual appeal.

Several of the others that I own were revolvers that I wrote reviews for many years ago and no, they were not cherry picked by Taurus. Taurus used to be about 30 minutes from me and the firearm was randomly picked off the shelf.

Andyd · Feb 4, 2021

I still suspect it to be an ammunition related problem. The aforementioned problem with the Colt Lawman also happened with .357 Magnums, while .38 Specials did not show the symptons. A shorter and therefore lighter revolver will have more felt recoil impulse.

I am approaching the problem from considering the cartridge and chamber dimensions and from a reloader's standpoint. The brass case has a diameter of .379 inches, the bullet a max. dia. of .359. The throats are generally cut a tad larger than the bullet to not compress it, which would reduce contact with rifling and accuracy, yet increasing leading, let's say .360 for the throats.
During the recoil, when the gun is violently pushed backwards, the inertia will put forward forces on the stationary bullets and has them walking out, like a kinetic bullet puller is working.
Roll crimps have to be fitting exactly into the groove to securely hold the bullet in place and even small variations in case length will preclude that. Plated bullets are usually soft swaged and have no crimp groove and as mentioned before, the plating is kind of slick, so that taper crimping is not positively working. The reason why I do not use plated bullets in .357 SIG is that there is no way to securely crimp them to avoid bullet set back and potential over pressure.

jeffrefrig · Feb 4, 2021

Didn't Taurus recently move to a new facility and start making all its guns stateside now? I think they also have a fairly new CEO. I was watching an interview of him on YouTube, but I can't remember the date of the video. It's hard keeping track.

three50seven · Feb 4, 2021

I have owned a few Taurus firearms over the years and have had issues with some of them. I believe the real problem with Taurus is their customer service, or lack there of. One of the first ones I had was a PT99. I bought it used and it was missing the rear sight blade. It worked perfectly otherwise. I called Taurus to see if I could get one. After being on hold for a very, very long time, they told me I would need to send the gun in to one of their service centers and they may or may not be able to fix it....

A good friend and shooting buddy had one of their .22LR revolvers and it had the absolute worst trigger (both DA and SA) that I've ever experienced on a revolver.

On the other hand, the G2 and G3 autos seem to work really well, especially considering their price point.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Taurus vs. Smith

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