I have a friend that has one of those in .416 Rigby. I shot it once standing and once from the bench and I wouldn't shoot it again if a bear was about to eat me. It's too light for the caliber and the recoil is brutal.
British double rifles ?
- Thread starter Harrison
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I have a friend that has one of those in .416 Rigby. I shot it once standing and once from the bench and I wouldn't shoot it again if a bear was about to eat me. It's too light for the caliber and the recoil is brutal.
You generally pay extra for the 'British' attached to Double Rifle.
A Double Rifle of the same era but made in Germany or Austria can cost 1000's less and be of just about the same quality if not the same in many instances.
There are some very nice DR's made in Belgium also. Don't overlook those in your hunt for an affordable rifle. Francotte among them.
All this unless you just absolutely must have a British product.
There are some Spanish mfg DR's too. Some very nice ones and some so-so. Just like their history of shotguns, so their track record with DR's.
The same mfg'rs involved in both. Most of the better DR's are copies of the H&H system as are their shotguns.
Not all Brit products are 'Bespoke' nor are they Top Shelf. They have their Tiers of workmanship (workpersonship?) just as anyother.
You will even pay extra for a London based maker over a maker on the wrong side of the river in Birmingham.
That inspite of the fact that some of the London makers have sourced actions and parts from Brum (Birmingham) shops.
My Lord,, the very thought of it..
Some will tell you that some of London's raw parts come from Spain and Italy too.
A Hammer gun will likely cost you less than a HammerLess edition.
A Jones Underlever type action of old will generally cost less than a top lever opening action.
Giant calibers equal bigger dollars on the price tags. The 577's, 600N/E ect all get attention.
The 470 N/E is one that is fairly common, is noted as a good stopped and is not generally over priced for what it is.
So too the 500 N/E. The 3 1/4" cased rd usually a bit more pricey than the slightly older 3" case rd.
The 470N/E is simply the 500 3 1/4" necked down.
A rifle may have Damascus bbls.
Many feel they are OK with BP loads and/or Smokeless loads that mimic BP pressures. (They call the latter... 'Nitro for Black' loads)
If a British gun,,check the Proof Marks. They will tell the story of the gun. When Proofed and for what. It may have been Re-Proof for Nitro (Smokeless).
Watch out for Fake upgraded proofs.
Box locks less expensive than tru sidelocks.
Not all DR's will shoot to POA no matter what load you seem to cook up for it. It's quite a dark science to get them to shoot correctly. Velocity, bullet weight, bullet time in bbl, recoil, how the gun is rested while targeting. Plain frustrating at times. Then others just seem to lay them right in there with little tweaking of the load
Reloading for the big boys is about the only way to do it w/o going broke. But setting up to reload can be expensive. Some of the odd caliber dies are very expensive. Some of the bigger cals are made on the 1" dia(?) dies not the 7/8" standard stock.
Brass cases & Jacketed bullets are very expensive for them. The cases gulp powder at 100+ grains per load.
Yes you can shoot 'reduced load' too if you want to.
Right now prices on the British stuff and all double rifles is kind of soft as the dealers say. Not moving at the brisk pace they were a few years back when anything with SxS barrels was hot.
A Double Rifle of the same era but made in Germany or Austria can cost 1000's less and be of just about the same quality if not the same in many instances.
There are some very nice DR's made in Belgium also. Don't overlook those in your hunt for an affordable rifle. Francotte among them.
All this unless you just absolutely must have a British product.
There are some Spanish mfg DR's too. Some very nice ones and some so-so. Just like their history of shotguns, so their track record with DR's.
The same mfg'rs involved in both. Most of the better DR's are copies of the H&H system as are their shotguns.
Not all Brit products are 'Bespoke' nor are they Top Shelf. They have their Tiers of workmanship (workpersonship?) just as anyother.
You will even pay extra for a London based maker over a maker on the wrong side of the river in Birmingham.
That inspite of the fact that some of the London makers have sourced actions and parts from Brum (Birmingham) shops.
My Lord,, the very thought of it..
Some will tell you that some of London's raw parts come from Spain and Italy too.
A Hammer gun will likely cost you less than a HammerLess edition.
A Jones Underlever type action of old will generally cost less than a top lever opening action.
Giant calibers equal bigger dollars on the price tags. The 577's, 600N/E ect all get attention.
The 470 N/E is one that is fairly common, is noted as a good stopped and is not generally over priced for what it is.
So too the 500 N/E. The 3 1/4" cased rd usually a bit more pricey than the slightly older 3" case rd.
The 470N/E is simply the 500 3 1/4" necked down.
A rifle may have Damascus bbls.
Many feel they are OK with BP loads and/or Smokeless loads that mimic BP pressures. (They call the latter... 'Nitro for Black' loads)
If a British gun,,check the Proof Marks. They will tell the story of the gun. When Proofed and for what. It may have been Re-Proof for Nitro (Smokeless).
Watch out for Fake upgraded proofs.
Box locks less expensive than tru sidelocks.
Not all DR's will shoot to POA no matter what load you seem to cook up for it. It's quite a dark science to get them to shoot correctly. Velocity, bullet weight, bullet time in bbl, recoil, how the gun is rested while targeting. Plain frustrating at times. Then others just seem to lay them right in there with little tweaking of the load
Reloading for the big boys is about the only way to do it w/o going broke. But setting up to reload can be expensive. Some of the odd caliber dies are very expensive. Some of the bigger cals are made on the 1" dia(?) dies not the 7/8" standard stock.
Brass cases & Jacketed bullets are very expensive for them. The cases gulp powder at 100+ grains per load.
Yes you can shoot 'reduced load' too if you want to.
Right now prices on the British stuff and all double rifles is kind of soft as the dealers say. Not moving at the brisk pace they were a few years back when anything with SxS barrels was hot.
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Saw a documentary....
...on the inside workings of the Holland and Holland factory. The artistry was jaw dropping. Their custom jobs, which they do a lot of, will run the price of a nice car for the basic rifle.
...on the inside workings of the Holland and Holland factory. The artistry was jaw dropping. Their custom jobs, which they do a lot of, will run the price of a nice car for the basic rifle.
British double rifles are pure precision as well as a work of art. I have owned a couple European guns and a fair number of English doubles. The English guns are perfectly hand regulated , they open and close flawlessly without effort, an important factor when speed of reloading comes in to play. The larger calibers have the third fastener, which varies with manufacturer, the European guns use a cross bolt which is strong but does not require the hand fitting and is clumsier than a third fastener.
You can find English guns in plain box locks and ornate side locks. Comparing an English double to a European gun is like comparing a Ferrari to a Hyundai.
You can find English guns in plain box locks and ornate side locks. Comparing an English double to a European gun is like comparing a Ferrari to a Hyundai.
Shooting from the bench must be very painfull, at least when shooting standing the body flexibilty will help to absorb recoil.
A friend of mine once fired 3 shots of one of those very big calibers(cannot remember which one now) from the prone position. Later that day he went to to hospital because he was suffering from concussion.
The recoil was worse when shooting from the bench but both shots felt like my brain bounced around in my head. I have shot a .470 NE double rifle from the bench and although it's not something I would want too shoot all day the recoil was manageable. The double rifle was much heavier than the Ruger and I'm sure that made a big difference in the recoil. Larry
I can’t add anything to the double rifle discussion. Wish I could! I am amused at the #1 .416 Rigby story and the brain bouncing around inside one’s head. 
I know what you mean, but in my case the offending weapon would be a Model 70 .458. 
I have two .416s. One has a “Kevlar” stock and weighs about 10-pounds. The other has a wood stock and weighs 12-pounds. Both rifles seem to fit me about the same, but I have never measured them to compare. The 12-pound gun with its wood stock is a beautiful weapon, but heavy to carry - and it “outkicks” the 10-pounder by a pretty fair margin!
Both are child’s play compared to the 9.5-pound .458.
I know what you mean, but in my case the offending weapon would be a Model 70 .458. I have two .416s. One has a “Kevlar” stock and weighs about 10-pounds. The other has a wood stock and weighs 12-pounds. Both rifles seem to fit me about the same, but I have never measured them to compare. The 12-pound gun with its wood stock is a beautiful weapon, but heavy to carry - and it “outkicks” the 10-pounder by a pretty fair margin!
Both are child’s play compared to the 9.5-pound .458.
You have to judge the individual gun. Have it in hand and better yet have had it apart,,all apart for service or inspection.
That's only way you can really appreciate the workmanship and quality,,or lack of it.
Every gun is judged against a high standard of the trade. Never against XYZ Gun Co Brand, or ABC Makers gun.
There's 'Best' and there're guns that don't met the standard. They can come from any maker.
There are several small makers around Europe that specialize in DR's and S/S shotguns. They build only to order and yes you can get a hidden fastener action if you wish.
Some build only a half dozen + complete guns in a calendar year.
There are lots of 'English' SxS shotguns and DR's around that are less than the sparkling quality, fit and finish of a H&H of the best of their days.
Most will show they have come from the Birmingham Gun Trade . They are still good firearms when in good repair.
But just being an 'English' double does not automaticly elevate them above anyone else in line.
You can pay a lot more for it because of the Brit connection if you want to.
But there's no assurance that the gun is any better than the German or ? mfg one sitting next to it.
I still have a few DR's.
_ John Rigby Hammer, Jones Underlever action in 500x3"
Damascus bbls, made in 1867 according to Rigby;s info. Certainly a fine quality rifle, has seen some use and some hard use but has held up well.
Still shoots well dispite bores getting worn. Orig leather/oak case some accessories.
The seller also had a same rifle in 577. I went back to buy that one after getting together the cash and of course it was gone. ($2500 !)
-Chas Osborne Hammerless 470N/E
Hard use, needs a restoration which I will attend to at some time. Simple BoxLock w/some engraving, exc bores. Shoots well and plants Kynoch 500gr solids and SP on target at 50m.
German hammerless. Forget the name on the bbl's right now. 9.3x74R
My favorite to shoot and reload for. Bbl's proofed in 9/29
Has it's orig German scope in claw mounts still with it. Very accurate with full loads at 50M. Simple 2 leaf rear sight used on 2nd leaf, will place light loads on bull at 50m also (95gr 9mmMak bullets over RedDot powder.)
Full side lock. I refinished the wood and recheckered. New horn buttplate I made for it from an FN A5 horn BP as the orig H/R w/ soft rubber center was in bad shape. Reblued the bbls. Bores excl.
Last one in was a German mfg also. 9.3x72R w/ claw mounts and scope(Leopold Alaskan 2.5). Simple BoxLock extractor. IIRC proofed in the 30's
Very badly soft wheel buffed and then hot blued over near full engraving on the frame. Engraving mid quality anyway, so that will disappear during polishing.
Exc bores, Came w/die sets, Norma brass (new) and bullets.
That's getting a do=over now, at least I've started . I've annealed the frame and parts, started striking the bbls, ect. Other things get in the way.
A mid range quality rifle when made but it'll be a nice rifle when finished and make a decent deer gun. 9.3x72R is about like a 38-55
I'll likely clear the claw mounts from the rifle. Put them on something else.
-I sold a Johann Springer (Vienna) DR. in 9mm x? cal. very small, light weight hammer rifle. Ex'clt high quality by a well known maker. Made before WW1 IIRC. Highly engraved, high qual wood, checkering.
Beautifully made,,inside and out. House sale item.
Got talked out of it for ?
They are out there, You just have to look a little harder. They don't generally show up on the used gun rack at the Local GS, but you never know!
Do some homework and examine lots of pieces before buying. Educate yourself.
Many of the guns on the market have had some ;work' done to them at some point. Some of it was done to fluff up the gun for sale. Simply doll-up
work. Be able to spot that for what it is. It may be hiding a flaw, it may simply be shine-ola to attract a buyer.
True repair is fine if done correctly just like on any other firearm.
These things do wear out and do break once in a while no matter who made them.
Don't accept workmanship that's slipshod. Finding someone to fix someone else's bad repair can be a very expensive trip down Money Pit Lane.
Always loved double rifles but they haven’t always loved me back. Had several British doubles, but they all went away. For my 65th birthday (13 years ago) my wife bought me a Merkel .500 3”. Got a good price for it as it was extractors and the company was going to ejectors only. Rifle was beautifully built, but only weighed 10.5 Lbs. Very accurate in other people’s hands, but kicked the s... out of me, even with an extra shoulder pad. I shot a friend’s .577 that kick less because it weighed about 13 Lbs., so if you are buying one you might want to try it out first (if possible) to see if it is too much for you.
Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Coincidentally, I just pulled a catalog of coming attractions from a well-known purveyor of such items out of my mailbox.
They must have been misinformed about my financial situation.
The fact that there aren’t any value indications with the rifles likely means that you don’t need to bother if the price is a concern
They must have been misinformed about my financial situation.
The fact that there aren’t any value indications with the rifles likely means that you don’t need to bother if the price is a concern
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The fact that there aren’t any value indications with the rifles likely means that you don’t need to bother if the price is a concern
Around here that is the yacht rule. If you need to ask the price. You cannot afford it.
"There are several small makers around Europe that specialize in DR's and S/S shotguns. They build only to order and yes you can get a hidden fastener action if you wish.
Some build only a half dozen + complete guns in a calendar year."
Its a third fastener not hidden, here is a Rigby example I have never seen a European double with this kind of detail. Other English makers have there own proprietary 3rd bites.
Some build only a half dozen + complete guns in a calendar year."
Its a third fastener not hidden, here is a Rigby example I have never seen a European double with this kind of detail. Other English makers have there own proprietary 3rd bites.
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There's lots of 'third fastener' just as you mention.
One is the Hidden (Third) Fastener. It's very common, even used on shotguns. Look it up if you don't believe me.
It keeps the breech face clear of all those clumsy European type third fasteners you refered to in your first post.
"....The larger calibers have the third fastener, which varies with manufacturer, the European guns use a cross bolt which is strong but does not require the hand fitting and is clumsier than a third fastener..."
Even smaller calibers have 'third fastener' actions. The Hidden 3rd is in common use on shotguns. But also Double Rifles as well. Some not so small caliber either. 470N/E and larger.
The simple Dolls Head is a third fastener when it comes right down to it. If fitted correctly it resists the bbls from pulling forward off the face of the action and rotating around the hinge pin. That motion is what places extra strain on the under lugs locking system.
Most rib Dolls Head extensions do nothing and their fit to the frame is nill.
The one on the Rigby DR shown is their their patented Rising Bolt design.
Like any locking bolt, only as good as how well it's fitted.
A Rigby can be assured to have been well fitted of course as they came from the shop.
But the design does clutter the breech face some what, certainly as much as most any European Kerstin cross-bolt design single or double cross bolt.
Any of them well fitted do their job.
Any of them not well fitted are just decoration.
..That goes for double under lug locking bolts as well.
It would surprise many as to the number of high quality SxS shotguns and rifles that only lock up securely on one of the under lugs. The other underlug locking bolt and whatever third fastener is employed is just going along for the ride.
The only way to tell is to strip the gun and spot in the locking lug surfaces carefully and actually see where they mate,,or not.
There are lots of differences in what's available. Some people are brand conscious when accumulating, others shop around and buy the 'gun' not the name. Not unlike all the other things we buy.
Most DR's purchased end up as range toys or even living room decorations while watching TV. No real need to worry about the stalking safety or uncluttered breech face for a faster reload.
I would recommend taking a hard look at Merkel or Heym or Chapuis.
Some of their models have classic British styling and they are much more economical than a British double . I have a very early import Heym 88B in .375 H&H and it is a beautiful double in true British style. Accurate , perfectly balanced and well engineered.
Some of their models have classic British styling and they are much more economical than a British double . I have a very early import Heym 88B in .375 H&H and it is a beautiful double in true British style. Accurate , perfectly balanced and well engineered.
Surprised Butch Searcy has not been mentioned yet. Anyway, they are discussed at length in the appropriate parts of ACCURATERELOADING.COM, which has a broad forum on firearms, with an emphasis on African hunting.
Cooter Brown
Member
Off topic here, but it's an absolute pleasure to read your posts.
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