1911 - Tired, Old, Unreliable Pistol Past It's Prime?

Only my own $.02 here, of course…

IMO the 1911 is iconic for a reason. ‘Nuff said about that.
Personally, I’m a spice of life-type guy so I do have Glocks (I have a thing for buying .40 cal. Glocks, then 9mm conversion barrels for them. All have run perfectly that way, except I needed to get a 34’s recoil spring in order for the 35 to be reliable with the 9 conversion barrel.) Anyway, I get the genius behind the Glock’s design and appreciate it for that…BUT…I have li’l girly hands for a guy and enough crook in my trigger finger that unless I consciously put my finger higher on a Glock’s trigger, I’m gonna get a blister on the bottom of it after two or three boxes coz it rubs against the inside of the trigger guard. No complaint, just a Glock being a Glock and my finger being my finger.

That all said, I’m old enough to where I came up shooting 1911’s and revolvers. Transition from one to the other is a lot easier for me. I have 5 1911’s and I’ve carried them. Same with revolvers, same with Glocks. Pivotal moment for me regarding carry pieces was bodycam video that was shown to me by an instructor when I told him I’d been carrying a Smith J-frame and if I needed more than 5 rounds to solve the problem, I was screwed anyway coz I failed in my situational awareness. After seeing that vid, I started carrying my Glocks again or my P365 with 15-rnd. mags.

I still adore my 1911’s for what they are but honestly, when I’m in the mood to carry .45acp, it’s been my 10-shot Sig P227. If I was Clint Smith, it’d still be a 1911.
 
I carried a 1911 Kimber my last two or three years on the job when they quit supporting my 629. I found it reliable. I do find it too big for civilian EDC so it's been neglected since. I do carry my officers model RIA fairly often. It's never had a malfunction of any kind. I guess due to my years as a revolver carrier I don't feel unprotected with fewer rounds. However, I do always carry a spare mag regardless of capacity. Horror of horrors this past year I bought a Springfield Officers Model in .40s&W. I guess now I'm embarrassingly outdated.

Yeah, I think we were trolled with this thread.
 
I think Vickers has his bonafides but, he builds custom 1911s so he has an interest in custom($) jobs.
It’s also one mans opinion.
I think the way Browning designed the gun, loose enough to function pretty much no matter what, was perfect for what he designed it for. A combat accurate reliable pistol and not a bullseye pistol. It can be made that way if you want but I think the KISS theory applies well to it.
And that’s just my opinion.
 
Well, I just added one of these to my collection of 1911s.
 

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Junkenstien said:
Larry Vickers said the glock 21 is a dog and my experience leads me to believe otherwise.
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Larry rolls with whatever is the current trend. 45 acp isn't the in Vogue cartridge for SD so 21 is out. Larry was a 1911 guy until polymer came about. He then promoted HK. When that wasn't lucrative enough he started advocating for Glock in his training program because that's what people wanted to use. He's versatile.

I admire the guy because he knows his 1911's and he's old school, but that won't pay the bills in the age of polymer and strikers.

He's a dinosaur but won't be soon forgotten because of his appreciation and knowledge of the 1911.
 
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Mule Packer said:
Now you're saying, "Golly, Larry Vickers is ex-Delta Force and he's written some books therefore he must know what he's talking about, but I can't afford $3500, so Larry says I need to buy a Glock"

Guess what! There's also a Glock Vickers Elite package going for a mere $1490! Such a bargain. Whaddya want to bet good ol' Larry gets a kick back on that, too!
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$1490 for a Glock?? That'll be the day...

But I won't pay $3900 for Vickers 1911 either. Rock River, Les Baer, and Clark all have custom 1911s for much much less than that, are Bullseye accurate, and 100% reliable.
 
rogerwnuss said:
Just for the record, isn't the average number of shots fired in a confrontation three or four rounds?
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Sure, so pack a j frame and you'll have ammo left over!


Seriously, as a longtime 1911 .45 carrier who switched to G17 / G19, here are the disadvantages (I will refer to Glocks but include all quality plastic guns):


1. Quality 1911s cost much more than equivalent plastic guns. To buy serious 1911 reliability you have to spend at least 2X the cost of a G19 and sometimes multiples.

2. 1911s are finicky on modern ammo, being designed around a standard military ball cartridge.

3. Modern 1911s are made tight for accuracy. They must be "broken in," run wet, and cleaned frequently whether fired or not.

4. Glocks come apart in seconds. Many modern 1911s require a barrel bushing wrench, recoil spring tool, etc for disassembly.

5. If a part is needed, hand fitting is required. Not so with plastic guns.

6. Capacity is limited. That means little to a lot of shooters, but it's why I switched to Glock.

7. 1911s sometimes are finicky about magazines, and frequently the ones that come OEM are poor. Plastic guns have good OEM mags.

8. Designs have improved. Whoever heard of tuning rhe extractor, contouring the feed ramp, or enlarging the ejection port on a Glock?
 
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Glocks can fail too, as I previously stated. What each of us carry is a personal decision and really nobody else's business. The members here have a vast amount of experience too and we do what works for us. My SR1911 runs like a champ and has needed no work done to make it do that. It also has devoured any ammo I have fed it. Between my military and LE careers I have over 35 years of firearms experience and I haven't had a 1911 fail me yet. But a Glock has.
 
Not a big fan of the 1911, never got enough time with them to feel comfortable with one. Never even handled a Glock. I guess I am doomed from the start!

I do have an affinity for the 45 ACP cartridge. This is my edc.

Kevin
 

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Puller said:
instead turn my thoughts to a more modern designed .45 ACP that holds twice the ammo while still being nimble and, most importantly, goes "bang" every time you pull the trigger.
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I have multiple Para-ordnance double stack 1911s that have the same capacity as a Glock (actually I think they hold more) and mine always go bang and feed pretty much everything I have fed them. And the Para-ordnances have full supported barrels and never have issues with Glock bulges or cases blowing out.

Rosewood
 
Yes , the 1911 is an old design . I have a true story about " old design " . It was 1999 , I was riding my 1945 Harley Flathead 74 down main street in Roswell NM . I pulled up to a stop light , eased the hand shifter into neutral and sat back , waiting . A kid of a " rice rocket " pulls up along side and hollers over , " hey old timer , wanna race " ?
I told " sure " ! He said , " really " ? I told him my motorcyle was over 50 yrs old , for him to bring that piece of S#%^* that he was ridng back in 50 yrs and we would race . The light turned green and he took off , no further comments .
Come back with your " fantastic plastic " guns in 110 yrs and lets see how well they have held up or even lasted that long ? Regards Paul
 
I wonder how many of the malfunctions Mr. Vickers observes are due to the particular 1911 being made with incredibly tight clearances? I remember one particular USPSA match in which I participated where the weather was miserable. It was freezing and there was a little sleet and freezing rain that day. I saw several competitors with match grade 1911's having issues with their pistols jamming. They actually laughed at the 1911 I brought that day. Mine had these markings on it indicating that it had been in the service of the United States Army. It's finish was... it sort of had a finish. It also rattled when shaken. It also did not fail to feed, fire, and extract 100%. There was no laughing when I finished the match.
So maybe a lot of these 1911's that fail are ones that are built to match grade tolerances, then jam when there is no longer sufficient space for a build up of powder residue and grime.
 
As I've mentioned before, the majority of the polymer wonders that dominate today represent more a triumph of modern marketing than superior design. The angry Tupperware from Dr. Gaston and his progeny from other manufacturers are true wonders of modern manufacturing technique, turning out cheap yet serviceable and durable tools but they all take a back seat to other things that matter such as shootability- there are no modern designs out there that even approach JMB's century old designs in terms of shootability, so don't anyone even try to go there- ergonomics before anyone had coined the word and longevity. Having had "modern" trigger cocking and striker fired pieces foisted upon my by my agency over the past 21 years when I'm home and on my own I happily default to a 1911, revolvers in .357, 44 or 45, both thumb and trigger cocked, or my pre-B CZ-75. The majority of military and civil organizations default to administrative and logistic ease rather than actual effectiveness of tools provided to their personnel. Honestly, it would be better that everyone be compelled to provide their own firearms, demonstrate proficiency and receive whatever maintenance support from their parent organization is required rather than having a "one size fits all" solution jammed down their throats. Scores and results on the street and in the field would improve. The 1911 is simply and objectively easier to shoot fast and well and hit with. And hitting is the purpose of the whole thing. But sadly, too many people have lost site of that fact.
 
"Tired, Old, Unreliable Past It's Prime"...sounds like me...which is why I still carry mine...a 1911 daily since 1976...

I taught 3-5 tactical shooting classes a month from 1991/2 area to 2013...and still do monthly classes from May to November...I've seen them ALL fail at some point. And most is due to operator error not gun design.

As to having to spend $3500 for a "reliable" 1911, none of mine cost half that and I carry a 1911 daily as well as shoot them in IDPA. The only thing that has ever stopped one of them is a bad reload that would have stopped a Glock....The PREFECT GUN..not.

Bob

ps...just wait till all that polymer starts breaking down...all plastics eventually do. I've also been present when two students Glock Boomed with factory ammo. I've had one with factory ammo and one with reloads. Several friends have had Glock Booms some of them cracking the frames...
 
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cowboy4evr said:
I have a true story about " old design " . It was 1999 , I was riding my 1945 Harley Flathead 74 down main street in Roswell NM . I pulled up to a stop light , eased the hand shifter into neutral and sat back , waiting . A kid of a " rice rocket " pulls up along side and hollers over , " hey old timer , wanna race " ?
I told " sure " ! He said , " really " ? I told him my motorcyle was over 50 yrs old , for him to bring that piece of S#%^* that he was ridng back in 50 yrs and we would race . The light turned green and he took off , no further comments .
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Not as old, but was stopped behind a car making a left hand turn, had a Mustang GT ahead of me (probably a mid 2000's model). He zipped around the card spooling it up and going through gears, and so did I on my 1982 Honda Gold Wing with full touring package. I proceeded to zip around the Mustang with the big ole touring bike. I am sure it hurt his feelings:)

Rosewood
 
waffles said:
I've owned plenty of 1911s, and most of them have been pretty darn reliable (and never in the $3,500 range). None of them have ever been quite Glock 19 reliable, but the most reliable of them (Dan Wesson Specialist, Dan Wesson A2, Springer MC Operator, and a RIA GI model) were certainly reliable enough that I'd not hesitate to carry any of them.

It is also true that the 1911 is large, heavy, and low capacity. There are higher capacity options, more accurate options, safer options, lighter options, smaller options, and all manner of other improvements available with other pistol designs made in the last 110 years.

Vickers had a career where those improvements we have now could have made a real difference to him and his friends, and he (mostly) speaks with that in mind. There have been attempts to breathe new martial life into the 1911, the best examples that come to mind being the MEUSOC program and its eventual offspring the M45, with an honorable mention to things like the FBI's HRT 1911 program that got us the Springfield Professional (still want one), but eventually those programs always go quietly away and the groups with the options wind up Glock 19s or similar.

Vickers is right that the Glock 19 (or honestly plenty of other similar pistols) beat out the 1911 platform for martial and other serious uses, and I'm sure there are people on this forum for whom that the differences between the two could matter. For most of us, it really doesn't, just as the difference between revolvers and autos will never matter to most of us. It's ok to carry or love whatever guns we want while recognizing that time marches on.
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This! Bang on the dot! Currently own a Sig 226 and a RIA 1911. Both have been excellent in every way. Unfailing function, accuracy. Never found any brand of type of ammo that each would not shoot w/o problems. Have owned and enjoyed Glock 17L, 22, 21, 22. Same story. Excellent. Sincerely. bruce.
 
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