Yes, but there are extenuating circumstances. They had already made a replacement. Kim said it was currently "drying" prior to shipment. The problem is I told them I wanted a refund. Their policy is either store credit, or a refund minus 25%. I didn't appreciate being ignored for a month, but at least I receive the bulk of my funds back and wash my hands of it. Sadly, their quality seems to have gone downhill.
Kramer Leather Customer Service Experience
- Thread starter Smoke
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Yes, but there are extenuating circumstances. They had already made a replacement. Kim said it was currently "drying" prior to shipment. The problem is I told them I wanted a refund. Their policy is either store credit, or a refund minus 25%. I didn't appreciate being ignored for a month, but at least I receive the bulk of my funds back and wash my hands of it. Sadly, their quality seems to have gone downhill.
My experience has been that in the gun business, there are a lot of small shops turning out various products who DO know their limitations, and spell those out for their customers, some of whom just can't accept that.
Years ago, I wanted some custom grips for a 3" Model 625 that I knew I would keep forever. Looking around, I called Roy Fishpaw, and we talked. I told him what I wanted, and he quoted me a price and told me he would be in touch when he was ready to make the grips.
More than a year later, I got a letter from Mr. Fishpaw advising that he was ready to make my grips. I called him, and with his permission, I delivered the 625 to him personally at his home in Lynchburg, Virginia...it was a great motorcycle ride down Skyline Drive and the Blue Ridge Parkway! (He was gracious and very, very nice...showed me his shop and the scrapbook he kept of grips he'd made.) After another 4 months or so, he shipped the revolver back to me, with the new grips installed.
Craig Spegel is another artisan with a years-long waiting list, and he's very upfront and honest about telling you that. You call him, he takes your name and number, and when he's ready to make your grips he'll call you. When your grips are ready to ship, he'll call you again, you then send him payment, and he'll send your grips. The last High Power grips I bought from him took more than 2 years, and for the last year or so I've been on his "revolver list". I know it'll be at least another year or two before he can fill my order, and that's okay...the quality is worth the wait.
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StrawHat
Member
Red,
We may be talking about two different things. You, being a designer, look for that in a product.
Me, I want a product that lives up to my expectations, is built to my standards, and performs the way I expect it to perform. I am happy with scabbards that replicate some of the older classic holsters.
Others have different expectations.
But, I see the quality of holsters from the major makers has declined in this century. That is why I seek out and promote the little guys, the custom stitchers.
Kevin
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Over the 50 years I have been carrying, I have probably had more holsters, gun belts, pouches and gear than most. I was always searching for the perfect combination of design, material, build quality, performance and longevity. I have had Milt Sparks, Bruce Nelson, Mitch Rosen, Rick Bachman, and a slew of others custom make what I thought was going to be the perfect holster. They all had long wait times, they all charged a pretty penny and while they were all very nice and high quality in their own right, there was always some feature or quirk to keep me from rating them at 100%.
I do not care for "excuses" and that (to me) means snaps, straps, screws, velcro, etc. that make up for a less than proper design and fit for a particular gun. I also do not care for holsters made to generally fit different but similar guns.
After receiving my very first Kramer Horsehide Holster, belt and bullet pouch decades ago I knew I had found what I was looking for and never looked back. IMHO there just isn't any better - anywhere. Maybe prettier or better looking, but not functionally better. IMO he offers the best quality made out of the best horsehide and the fit, finish and retention qualities are second to none. But, that is just my personal opinion. I am sure others have their experiences and opinions too. Once again, I have absolutely no ties to Kramer or his company. I do not get one penny from him nor would he know me if he ran me over - lol. I only tout his products because IMO they really are that good. I have never been disappointed.
I do not care for "excuses" and that (to me) means snaps, straps, screws, velcro, etc. that make up for a less than proper design and fit for a particular gun. I also do not care for holsters made to generally fit different but similar guns.
After receiving my very first Kramer Horsehide Holster, belt and bullet pouch decades ago I knew I had found what I was looking for and never looked back. IMHO there just isn't any better - anywhere. Maybe prettier or better looking, but not functionally better. IMO he offers the best quality made out of the best horsehide and the fit, finish and retention qualities are second to none. But, that is just my personal opinion. I am sure others have their experiences and opinions too. Once again, I have absolutely no ties to Kramer or his company. I do not get one penny from him nor would he know me if he ran me over - lol. I only tout his products because IMO they really are that good. I have never been disappointed.
Malysh
Member
Hmm, I was unaware of his passing! Sorry to hear that!
After some research of my own I have just read Greg Kramer is STILL alive and well and the rumors of his death are ..... just rumors. I never heard that he had died up until I read it in this post, so I was a bit skeptical.
The research wasn't needed, if you had read my post above, #8
When you consider the time-frame promised, I don't think a month off from that is unreasonable. However, I have no axe to grind, either way.......
Malysh
Member
No placating, dissenting view, or defending view is going to satisfy the original poster.
He is committed to do as much dirt as he can to the Kramers.
I'm out of this "discussion".
He is committed to do as much dirt as he can to the Kramers.
I'm out of this "discussion".
Chubbs103
US Veteran
Funny. I got an e-mail from Kramer Leather this morning asking me to rate my latest purchase. Hopefully, addressed the concerns on this thread.
I have holsters from several makers with long lead times (Milt Sparks, Barranti, etc.). Typically, these makers have the reputation they do (and the long lead time) for a reason. The same is true for Kramer.
While I think they might lose a few orders by doubling (or tripling) their delivery estimate, I think they would prevent damaging discussions like the one we have had here.
I, for one, will continue to do business with Kramer, but I understand the frustrations conveyed by some of the contributors to this discussion.
I have holsters from several makers with long lead times (Milt Sparks, Barranti, etc.). Typically, these makers have the reputation they do (and the long lead time) for a reason. The same is true for Kramer.
While I think they might lose a few orders by doubling (or tripling) their delivery estimate, I think they would prevent damaging discussions like the one we have had here.
I, for one, will continue to do business with Kramer, but I understand the frustrations conveyed by some of the contributors to this discussion.
I haven't said a single thing about my experience with this company except my mistaken belief that Greg Kramer had died) that wasn't true.
I'm not sure how telling the truth about my experience with them to be considered doing them dirt.
They advertise that the holster would be ready between 12 and 16 weeks. We're coming up on 22 weeks now and they still haven't completed the holster that Mrs. Kramer promised me by February 12th.
That is a 100% true statement. No dirt there
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Speaking for myself, I think Kramer would be doing themselves a favor by adopting an ordering system similar to Milt Sparks. Sparks now takes the order and has a 2 step verification process. Step 1: customer reviews the order for accuracy in the initial email. If the order is correct it enters the general queue. Step 2: about a month before the holster goes into production, the customer must approve the order (last chance to make any changes). Once approved, it goes into the production queue. The customer's card is charged when it ships. It's a seemless way to manage the customer's expectations with minimal communication.
Charging the customer's card immediately upon placing the order, and then failing to come close to meeting the estimated delivery time listed on the website just asks for trouble. Just my $0.02 free of charge.
Charging the customer's card immediately upon placing the order, and then failing to come close to meeting the estimated delivery time listed on the website just asks for trouble. Just my $0.02 free of charge.
Placed an order around the end of October of last year. Was told that my holster wouldn't be ready before mid March when I asked for an update. My "Spidey Sense" tingling, I asked for a refund. That was a couple of days ago. Haven't heard back from them about it since.
Seriously, if your business is so backed up that you can't deliver something like a holster in a month's time then really ought to stop taking new orders, get yourselves caught up on the ones you already have, and go from there.
Seriously, if your business is so backed up that you can't deliver something like a holster in a month's time then really ought to stop taking new orders, get yourselves caught up on the ones you already have, and go from there.
I just got off the phone with Kramer. They promised my wife we'd have it by February 12th. It's not here yet.
I spoke to the owner's wife and she told me that they were certainly going to ship it tomorrow or Monday at the latest. I told her I didn't believe her. I told her I didn't necessarily care if it came a little later but I wanted her to tell me the truth about how long it was going to take for me to get it.
He professed to understand what I said and why I said it and again promise me that the holster would be shipped by Monday at the latest. We shall see.
I'm pretty sure I said this before but it's not so much how long I have to wait for it as it is that I feel like they're lying to me about how long I'm going to have to wait for it. If they had told us when we ordered it that it was highly unlikely that I was going to see that holster before the end of February or beginning of March that wouldn't have bothered me nearly as much as telling me that I was going to get it by the end of January and not sending it till March
I spoke to the owner's wife and she told me that they were certainly going to ship it tomorrow or Monday at the latest. I told her I didn't believe her. I told her I didn't necessarily care if it came a little later but I wanted her to tell me the truth about how long it was going to take for me to get it.
He professed to understand what I said and why I said it and again promise me that the holster would be shipped by Monday at the latest. We shall see.
I'm pretty sure I said this before but it's not so much how long I have to wait for it as it is that I feel like they're lying to me about how long I'm going to have to wait for it. If they had told us when we ordered it that it was highly unlikely that I was going to see that holster before the end of February or beginning of March that wouldn't have bothered me nearly as much as telling me that I was going to get it by the end of January and not sending it till March
Finally got one of them on the phone, as they'd been ducking my emails. Got my order cancelled, but they said they were going to charge a cancellation fee. I told them try it, and see how far that gets you.
Reading that account of your latest interaction w/ them, it seems pretty apparent that they're going to keep lying to you until you sic your bank/cc on them. If I were in your shoes, I hand them an ultimatum, either mail the holster today or issue me a full refund right now.
I have 3 Kramer Horsehide holsters, but two were purchased back in the very early 90's. They are some of the best holsters I have ever used. All are IWB.. 4506 was first, then 1911, then the Glock 22 when I first got into LE work. I don't remember what the wait was back then, but you had to mail out a check to pay for them if that tells you anything. No clue on how they are today, I would really hope the quality has not gone down.
Called Kim again on Friday 2/21 (4th follow-up, and 2nd phone call), and asked if she knew when the partial refund might post to my account. She said it should post no later than Monday.
ETA:
Partial refund posted today (Tuesday). Glad to have it resolved.
ETA:
Partial refund posted today (Tuesday). Glad to have it resolved.
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Yesterday, February 24th ( 21 weeks after we ordered the holster ) we got a notification from Kramer that a shipping lable has been generated for my holster.
ETA The holster is scheduled for delivery on Friday the 28th
ETA The holster is scheduled for delivery on Friday the 28th
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Was able to get a full refund.
How about you? Did that auto-generated shipping label pan out?
My holster was shipped Monday. It got to Colorado Springs Thursday and the USPS sent it to Fountain Colorado. The Fountain PO sent it back to Denver. Hopefully it will make it to Colorado on Saturday and I'll get it Monday.
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