Genuine bicycle revolver or cut barrel?

chuck303 said:

Saw one just sell at auction for 600 plus premiums taxes and fees. No clue as to originality. I have a blued 1903 in .32s&w I payed 300 for out of a gunshop lol

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Indeed, this revolver “sold” last October:


And it sold again yesterday:


The range of $600 to $900 seems low compared to what some bicycle revolvers have sold for at Rock Island Auctions recently, but RIA gets top dollar:

This one sold for $4925 in 2019:


And this one sold for $4600 in 2020:

Ian, if they are bringing big money I think you should get a letter to see if it is original or cut.

DARE said:

Ian, if they are bringing big money I think you should get a letter to see if it is original or cut.

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I never said I bought it, just that it sold yesterday.

Every confirmed Distributor refinished or altered finish antique revolver usually has a single number or letter stamped under the grip frame and often on other matching parts to keep them together during the refinishing process.
The finish on this one looks factory to me from the photos. Always different though when in hand.
If you look at the base pin you will notice no finish with what looks like case coloring.
Professional top notch refinishing strips the gun down completely and refinishes only those parts that were originally plated. Removing the base pin is NOT EASY. Doesn’t look like it’s been touched to me. But in hand inspection required.

Murph

I should have mentioned that I believe the auction house doesn’t believe this one has its original finish (meaning they believe it’s refinished) even though they told me verbally that it has its original finish. Here’s why:

1). Low pre-auction estimate of $600 to $900;

2). They state this revolver retains 98% of its finish, nowhere do they use the word “original”;

3). They very deceptively describe the condition as NRA Very Good until, when you look at this definition, it states the following:

• VERY GOOD: All original parts; none to 30% original finish; original metal surfaces smooth with all edges sharp; clear lettering, numerals and design on metal; wood slightly scratched or bruised; bore disregarded for collectors firearms.

So, none to 30% original finish.

Of course, you really can’t believe what auction houses have to say.

If my reasoning is correct here, if they truly believe this one is refinished, which they don’t outright say, it’s a bit disingenuous for them to say in the description “Not many found in this condition”, which, if they do believe it to be refinished, is truthful in a roundabout way as most of these aren’t refinished, and found in that condition.

But it appears the jury seems to think this one retains its original finish.

I see what you are questioning but I still believe that revolver's finish is factory original. You mentioned the last '6' in the serial number on the cylinder. Compared to the first '6' in the serial; it looks identically light. The logo on the frame appears lightly stamped as does the last 'A' in the barrel address. What I suspect is normal wear to the die. I'll further speculate that those same dies are used for multiple models or, at least barrel lengths, that came down the line. Once again, the 6's in the butt serial number look 'different' (lighter) than the other numbers. I wonder if it is possible that the revolver was part of a large order and ordered "in the white" so it (they) could be stamped with a rack number and then finished without buffing. I'm having problems believing the frame has been refinished and/or the whole revolver was refinished.

mmaher94087 said:

I see what you are questioning but I still believe that revolver's finish is factory original. You mentioned the last '6' in the serial number on the cylinder. Compared to the first '6' in the serial; it looks identically light. The logo on the frame appears lightly stamped as does the last 'A' in the barrel address. What I suspect is normal wear to the die. I'll further speculate that those same dies are used for multiple models or, at least barrel lengths, that came down the line. Once again, the 6's in the butt serial number look 'different' (lighter) than the other numbers. I wonder if it is possible that the revolver was part of a large order and ordered "in the white" so it (they) could be stamped with a rack number and then finished without buffing. I'm having problems believing the frame has been refinished and/or the whole revolver was refinished.

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Would it letter as “in the white”?

In Post #23, I stated I never said I bought it. Here, I think I can now admit I can emphatically state that I didn’t admitted I didn’t purchase it, either. And so I did.

And so, I will await my factory letter and post it here when it arrives (I will order it this upcoming week).

The purpose of this post was to see what y’all thought. If y’all percent to be a fool, I was going to extrapolate information to the auction house and claim “not as described”, basically using the “not many found in this condition” to be a falsehood. And be at their mercy, ALTHOUGH as long as this letters with a 2” barrel, it very well may be with what I paid for it in refinished condition, given how much genuine examples go for (and it appears this might be completely authentic).

I thought the strikes against me to be MANY:

1). Poor photographs. Those on the site not overly convincing that not refinished;

2). It “sold” in October. But offered yet again. Was the previous purchaser convinced it wasn’t authentic and was it returned? Or, perhaps they didn’t pay for it…???

3). It was offered in two auctions and I thought someone would bid this one up well beyond the high end estimate, and the fact interest was tepid in both auctions suggested I was the fool.

I should have won this one in October but I didn’t hear the phone ring from the auction house. It hammered for $150 more ($650) yesterday (plus 15% buyer’s premium, shipping, etc). But last auction, if I bid on it, perhaps the competing bidder(s) may have been more motivated.

The rack number is interesting on this revolver. I’m not sure why more haven’t surfaced? Maybe you could rent a bicycle back in the day and also a bicycle revolver to go along with it?

If the rack number (post-factory) has nickel in the stamping, then, imo, it has to be a re-applied finish; but, again imo, it was very nicely done. Until you posted this photo with the rack number, I was of the opinion that the pistol was all original.

444 Magnum said:

If the rack number (post-factory) has nickel in the stamping, then, imo, it has to be a re-applied finish; but, again imo, it was very nicely done. Until you posted this photo with the rack number, I was of the opinion that the pistol was all original.

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Yes, reapplied to the rack number is probable, but was it reapplied to the entire revolver, or just to the rack number, as in a “touch up”?

Why touch up a stamp?
A better picture of the entire area would tell if it was a touchup, but a think that scenario is unlikely.
I think the entire pistol had a quality re-nickel at some point.
I find the presence of a rack number interesting.
If you had purchased it, I would recommend lettering to see what turned up.

444 Magnum said:

Why touch up a stamp?
A better picture of the entire area would tell if it was a touchup, but a think that scenario is unlikely.
I think the entire pistol had a quality re-nickel at some point.
I find the presence of a rack number interesting.
If you had purchased it, I would recommend lettering to see what turned up.

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I was leaning towards a renickel, but MANY very experienced individuals, far more knowledgeable than I, believe it to have its original finish. I don’t dispute their knowledge.

I had suspected a factory refinish, if refinishing had been done, as I don’t know who else could have done this work.

I only admitted I purchased this revolver when there was enough compelling evidence to prove the finish is likely original.

Yes, I will get a letter.

"Would it letter as “in the white”?" Possibly. The factory shipping records generally list finish, grip and barrel length. When you letter it, ask Don about the finish and rack number concern. Include photographs.

I lettered a Model 1, 1st Issue, 1st Type that was nickel plated. The belief was that the revolvers that are plated were plated by the distributor. My revolver was part of a 40-gun shipment to Storr's. When I asked Roy specifically (with photos) about the finish, his response was to say that there was a note in the margin of the factory shipping record that said, "Plate pistol".

I guess I got lost in the posts, I thought you said that you didn't own it.

I was on the fence about a refinish until you mentioned the rack number in the last picture. With the stamping being filled with nickel, that tells the tale for me.

It may be an original bicycle gun in original condition and I hope for your sake that it is. I collect rare variations, barrel lengths, etc. from several different manufacturers. If I'm looking at a rare barrel length and have any suspicion of it being refinished, I walk away. There are/were too many talented smiths who can replicate factory work. In many cases, they have ruined the collectability of once rare and desirable guns.

I'm not looking at the gun. You had your suspicions and they're likely well grounded. If the letter confirms the correct barrel length, then worst case you have a nice bicycle gun with a well done re-finish and some potentially interesting history (rack numbers).

Let us know when you get the letter.

444 Magnum said:

I guess I got lost in the posts, I thought you said that you didn't own it.

I was on the fence about a refinish until you mentioned the rack number in the last picture. With the stamping being filled with nickel, that tells the tale for me.

It may be an original bicycle gun in original condition and I hope for your sake that it is. I collect rare variations, barrel lengths, etc. from several different manufacturers. If I'm looking at a rare barrel length and have any suspicion of it being refinished, I walk away. There are/were too many talented smiths who can replicate factory work. In many cases, they have ruined the collectability of once rare and desirable guns.

I'm not looking at the gun. You had your suspicions and they're likely well grounded. If the letter confirms the correct barrel length, then worst case you have a nice bicycle gun with a well done re-finish and some potentially interesting history (rack numbers).

Let us know when you get the letter.

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I also tread lightly and avoid refinishes, BUT, with what I paid for it, I think if the letter confirms a 2” barrel length, even if refinished, given it is a quality refinish, if marketed through the right venue, I can even make a few dollars on it.

Here is a photo of a pair of lettered 1.5” 32 & 38

mmaher94087 said:

"Would it letter as “in the white”?" Possibly. The factory shipping records generally list finish, grip and barrel length. When you letter it, ask Don about the finish and rack number concern. Include photographs.

I lettered a Model 1, 1st Issue, 1st Type that was nickel plated. The belief was that the revolvers that are plated were plated by the distributor. My revolver was part of a 40-gun shipment to Storr's. When I asked Roy specifically (with photos) about the finish, his response was to say that there was a note in the margin of the factory shipping record that said, "Plate pistol".

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I forgot to ask, can you post photographs of this revolver?

At that time, it was common for distributors to apply finishes to revolvers. By the time this revolver shipped, in August 1907, this was much less common.

"... can you post photographs of this revolver?" Here's a quick left and right shot indoors.

Serial number 162:

mmaher94087 said:

"... can you post photographs of this revolver?" Here's a quick left and right shot indoors.

Serial number 162:

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A Model 1First Issue, First Type! That’s a very desirable revolver regardless of condition.

Even if applied after being shipped “in the white”, yours, distinctly, appears different than mine. Edges appear softer, and finish looks not quite factory, but time, or your photographs, gives the nickel finish a different appearance.

Once I receive this revolver, I can provide additional photographs and better hypotheses, to maybe determine if this revolver contains its original finish…or not. And also, see what information is provided in the factory letter, this of which I will send for tomorrow.

My photographs are crappy. Those are very quick photos, and I debated even showing them. The revolver is very clean with crisp lines. The frame looks brass in the photos but is silver plate and the barrel and cylinder are nickel. This revolver had been in the same family since 'no one can remember'. If I can make time, I'll take fresh photos tomorrow. This revolver is one of the nicest one's I've seen.

mmaher94087 said:

"... can you post photographs of this revolver?" Here's a quick left and right shot indoors.

Serial number 162:

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Nice one Mike