Tyler T-Grips and the Oklahoma Attorney General

Law-dog said:
Well you can say that. But when people order something knowing very specifically that there is no set date (1) when it will be manufactured and (2) when it will be shipped, they we call that the big boys and big girls rule. I will post it again. In law it is an agreement or contract, nobody is forced to agree to it, in contract law, we call this an offer to get in line for one of a kind historic product.
Click to expand...
Does The Big Boys And Big Girls Rule in contract law have a statutory exemption from federal laws and regulations for sellers who act like they're following The Little Mean Girls Rules?

16 CFR 435.2 Mail, Internet, or telephone order sales.

0001.JPG

I also wonder just how overworked police and prosecutors actually are in the general area of Newalla, Oklahoma, putting in 60 hour weeks trying to keep up with investigating all the murders and rapes there and in nearby communities, making them unable to be responsive to complaints about their local scammers?
 
I dealt with them years back, Pre-Internet. Ordered Delrin faux ivory grips - which they made for me, & were worth waiting for. Then a few years later - I called them & learned someone had died, & that the business was undergoing changes.
I found there are plenty of other very good vendors On Line. Now, I avoid doing business with anyone I can't talk to.
 
I have one I removed from one of my dad's Smiths, I don't like the thing, it just seems extraneous to me.
 
Borderboss said:
Tyler T-Grips continues to be a bad company in business ripping people off because there are too many apologists out there. If you purport to make a product and you take money for that product, then you d*mn well better produce that product!!! There is absolutely no excuse.

Tyler should have been out of business years ago and the owner in jail for fraud. As long as people continue to enjoy being defrauded, Tyler will continue to exist to dupe the next knucklehead.
Click to expand...
💯!!
 
Ameshawki said:
I was a big fan of Tyler's back in the 70's and 80's. Even then, supplies could be spotty. If I'm not mistaken the son is running the outfit and I think it's pretty much a one man show.
Click to expand...
I do not think the son, Melvin Tyler Jr, ever was involved in the company. He died at the age of 87, in 2015. I think it is a nephew that builds them part-time at his farm in Newalla, Oklahoma and has for the last 3 decades or so.
 
326MOD10 said:
I said I would be done with this thread but I feel forced to say something as people take comments out of context and have poor reading comprehension.

NO, THAT IS NOT WHAT I SAID

I said the company can't compete with the gotta have it now crowd. Nothing to do with the OP but just a fact.

I have never said this is the way to run a business or that if they defrauded anyone it was okay.

What I have said is these complaints have been around forever. I myself, as posted here, have waited 18 months for a couple. If you think all of a sudden it will be different then you are mistaken.

What is the old adage about the definition of insanity is not doing the same thing over and over again it is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

I also said in retrospect I understand why the OP did what he did in a later post. But I wouldn’t expect some big reform
Click to expand...
Well said.
 
65-2x2 said:
Don't ever order a Randall knife. ;) To be fair, the do tell you up front how many years it will take to receive your order.
Click to expand...
I have and do but not only do they tell you up front what the lead time is but they provide a receipt and full balance isn’t due until it is done (should have my “next” one in a year and a half).
 
Law-dog said:
I just think you are being petty and wasting time of government resources. Everybody on this forum and every gun forum is well aware that Melvin Tyler and Melvin Tyler Jr have both long since passed. I do not recall what year he shut down, but it would have been maybe 1986 or so, And everyone on the planet learned that long ago.

This very forum has discussed it forever. In fact an excellent article comparing the competition is presented for your review here. In fact the author made a special plea back then asking people not to waste their time bashing the old guy. Note. He asked that people not comment about delays in getting their products. As I said, everybody on any gun forum has known about this for decades. You may be the only one that did not, I dunno. Here is what he said in 2022.View attachment 764973


Rodan

Thread '"T" grip adapter comparison thread'

This forum seemed like the most appropriate for this topic, since S&Ws from this era are the most likely to have/get 'T' grip adapters.

I would prefer if we can steer clear of opinions regarding the manufacture/delivery time of the various manufacturers, and just discuss the fitment of the adapters. I currently have only one original Tyler for comparison, so feel free to add pics if you have some on other frame sizes/shapes.

This comparison includes an original Tyler #3 (sq. butt K), current production Tyler #3R (rd. butt K), and one each from BK grips and Robertson Trading Post, who is...
  • Like



He also posted numerous pictures comparing the other brands and if you read any of the old posts on this forum, most people did not have a preference and many like the new ones much better.

View attachment 764979

My point is very simple, I spent much of my life in law enforcement and many years as a prosecutor, working 60 hours a week trying to put evil and dangerous people in jail. And you come up with this crusade to try and have this old guy criminally prosecuting for being a krappy business person, I find that a bit morally lacking. If your campaign works, at least one investigator and one Assistant Attorney H General is going to spend a bunch of their time getting this case ready for prosecution. That is the way it works. If they take it to a grand jury, then dozens of people will hear the evidence while a special Assistant Attorney General will present all the complaints you get people to file to the Grand Jury and then they will decide to charge him. If you are successfull and really lucky they will haul him down to jail and let him post a bond. And the next Monday, he will post bond, and have two hearings before a trial is set. Of course he will hire an attorney and they will try and reach a deal which will include you getting all or some of your money back.

Or, if this pushes him over the edge, it happens in these small cases, he can just go bankrupt and start all over. If he happens to file bankruptcy, you may never get a dime, but of course you can take pride in being that guy that took him down.

Just my opinion. You are welcome to your own. I just have a higher set of morals and object to people who use the limited resources of law enforcement for their own personal vengeance.

So, you have a good life. And please keep us posted about how successful you are. I am sure your kids will be proud of your leadership in shutting down these crooked business enterprise.

Not meaning to offend, but I am old and I have seen lots of problems in society where law enforcement and prosecution money is used for rather simple issues, while people are being raped and assaulted and so on. And these cases take that money and time away from those cases.

By the way, I just ordered 3 of the competition just today. They will be here in a week.

View attachment 764978



My 2 cents. Live your life anyway you want, I will do the same.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the heads up on the Robertson Grip Adapter!! I just ordered one, will be delivered next week 😊. Great info! Thanks Again 👍.
 
Several years ago, I ordered a Tyler T grip for a Ruger Speed Six, printed out the form online, enclosed a check when I sent it in. My check was cashed within 7 days, but it was 18 months before I got the T Grip. During that time, I had texted them twice regarding the wait and never got any reply. YMMV. I ordered my first T Grip back in the late 1970s, the old man was making them and the wait wasn't bad then. I knew about BK, but I wanted an aluminum grip adapter because my Speed Six was stainless
 
The drill with Tyler was, you send them the money, and they make you an adapter when they get a roundtuit.
I waited so long, on one occasion, that I thought they had lost my order. Sent them a letter, and found there had been a price increase in the mean time.
I pointed that out, and they sent me the adapter.
These adapters have seen a resurgence in popularity. When I was a new shooter, the Tylers were considered fuddish at best. Now that retro revolvers are a thing, there is much more demand.
BK isn't a perfect substitute, but they work.
Moon
 
Jäger1 said:
Does The Big Boys And Big Girls Rule in contract law have a statutory exemption from federal laws and regulations for sellers who act like they're following The Little Mean Girls Rules?

16 CFR 435.2 Mail, Internet, or telephone order sales.

View attachment 764998

I also wonder just how overworked police and prosecutors actually are in the general area of Newalla, Oklahoma, putting in 60 hour weeks trying to keep up with investigating all the murders and rapes there and in nearby communities, making them unable to be responsive to complaints about their local scammers?
Click to expand...
You stabbed at multiple issues. The FTC rules are great. They work great for general rules of things on Ebay and Amazon, things that are produced, in a warehouse somewhere and advertised for sale. They do not apply, if you order a custom saddle or something that is not already produced and for sale.

If you read the order contract, it says, production times vary based on many things. During the pandemic, I tried many places to order ammo for my 17 WSM rifle. I placed the order with Midway and others, only to find it was out of stock. They refunded my money or did not take it at all, good business. But this guy is different. He gives the option to get on the waiting list. When he gets them made up, built on demand and backlog, he ships them.

If you read the CFR, it does not apply, when you contract around it. If you think it does, call up the FTC and ask them to investigate. Report back within 6 months or a year and let us know what they tell you. Just saying, those of us who have worked in these areas know that the FTC will not get involved in any small case like that. Federal agencies go after the big dogs. Just like they do in drug prosecutions. If it is not in the millions of rip-offs, they will not touch it, takes too much time to put the costly resources of the federal government on those cases. A US attorney once told me they only wanted sexy cases, those that got lots of headlines. The reason is that those cases send a message to many other companies and deters them from bad conduct. They do not work small cases, not a chance in a million.

Actually, I worked 60 hour weeks as a prosecutor just down the road in an adjacent county as an Assistant District Attorney. My case load include close to 5,000 persons at some point in the investigation, prosecution and follow up stages. In that 6 years, I was prosecutor of the year once. On year I recall, I sent 38 people to prison, and one I recall 22 jury trial and many bench trials. I have had 35-40 defendants show up for arraignment on a single day. It took 2 assistants with dollies just to carry all the files. Most prosecutors are over worked and under funded, that is why BOTH state and federal prosecutors do pleas bargains, always over 90% state and federal. Just the way it is. And, we do not have enough prisons for that other 90%, taxpayers would never pay for it. So we prioritize. Murders always go first. Then my priorities were always hurt people, rape, beatings, and so on. Those cases go first. Then drunk driving because it kills kids. And then drugs, you have to work those cases. So, when somebody comes in with a complaint to the local police department that some guy ripped them off for a $30 item or even $100, you gotta decide. It is not going to save anyone from bleeding and harm. Just the way it is. And when we talk about those rich lawyers living large, my salary was $48,000. The same job in New York might have been $248,000 but not that way out here.

You asked about Newalla. Newalla is not a town, it is a name given to a rural area. It has it's own zip code and is located in far SE Oklahoma City, maybe 30-35 miles from the famous federal building blown up by Tim McVeigh in 1995, i recall it, I could here it but not see it, I was on the phone with my wife, who was a mile away. They have a Federal Trade Commission. But they have no representative in Oklahoma, the nearest office is Dallas, those cases are done on-line, anyway. So regardless of the FTC rule you cite, nobody is going to file anything on it, not in a million years, unless the company is ripping off people in the millions. Just the best use of taxpayer dollars. You would approve if you saw the real costs.

Nobody, city, state or local is going to get very excited about a case like that. Prove me wrong. More important data, next post down.

More the next post.
 
Jäger1 said:
When you cashed a check for a product well over a year ago, pocketed the money, haven't sent the product that you accepted payment for, and you won't respond to any form of communication, including a demand for a refund, I think there's a few different Law-dogs in the country who might think a record of doing that suggests you're a scammer... whether USPS or local LEOs.

You of course can argue it's just civil, not fraud. You definitely won't get any action by doing nothing in response to such indifference.

Ask Jonathan Ciener how that works - he operated like was the model for how Tyler is operating today from what customers here and elsewhere are reporting. I think it was multiple charges for minor acts of fraud.

Sheriff Arrests Jonathan Arthur Ciener On Fraud Charges

But hey... once they've engaged a lawyer, gone through processing... whether or not it goes to trial, the scammer might decide it is easier to act like a businessman than a grifter.

This is not my issue. But if some business who has cashed my check and isn't heard from by a year later, I'm going to use all legitimate means to make them at least as annoyed as they've annoyed me. Among the options are both civil and criminal complaints.

They can argue they're not actually fraudsters as they appear to be.
Click to expand...
You cited the Ciener case and provided a link to the arrest, a newspaper article. Why did you not include the whole truth>? The DA dropped that case like a hot potato. Why? Because it was not fraud, it was just like this one, too many people ordered, he could not keep up, so orders took a year or more, so what? There were 70 BBB complaints because vocal customers got together and targeted him. OK fine, but tell the truth when you post things like that. He was not found guilty of anything, nothing. Your suggesting that he was, is disingenuous. People are still innocent in this country until proven otherwise. Ciener committed no crime, according to the DA who dismissed it, the judge who approved the dismissal and his attorney. If you have other information, please post it. You do realize that case was completely thrown out in under 4 months, that is fast, really fast, because you cannot even get past the bail hearings, arraignment and pre-trial conference in 4 months. That means there was no crime there, just slow processing.

1749312991047.png


You can get your own personal copy of the order throwing out the case by going to the Brevard county court website and paying $1.
 
Jäger1 said:
I also wonder just how overworked police and prosecutors actually are in the general area of Newalla, Oklahoma, putting in 60 hour weeks trying to keep up with investigating all the murders and rapes there and in nearby communities, making them unable to be responsive to complaints about their local scammers?
Click to expand...
I suspect they have plenty going on and like everywhere else short of people. Maybe not all the high crimes and misdemeanors you have in NW Montana.
Newalla is an unincorporated area Oklahoma City and handled by OKCPD. I'm sure OKC PD has plenty to do with murders and rapes and a lot of other crime in the city. OKC ranks in the top 20% of cities with the most crime in the US. Last year 78 murders. Rapes are around 500 a year.
I can see why a $30 grip adapter isn't high on their jump out there and do it right now list.
 
Law-dog said:
You stabbed at multiple issues. The FTC rules are great. They work great for general rules of things on Ebay and Amazon, things that are produced, in a warehouse somewhere and advertised for sale. They do not apply, if you order a custom saddle or something that is not already produced and for sale.

If you read the order contract, it says, production times vary based on many things. During the pandemic, I tried many places to order ammo for my 17 WSM rifle. I placed the order with Midway and others, only to find it was out of stock. They refunded my money or did not take it at all, good business. But this guy is different. He gives the option to get on the waiting list. When he gets them made up, built on demand and backlog, he ships them.

If you read the CFR, it does not apply, when you contract around it. If you think it does, call up the FTC and ask them to investigate. Report back within 6 months or a year and let us know what they tell you. Just saying, those of us who have worked in these areas know that the FTC will not get involved in any small case like that. Federal agencies go after the big dogs. Just like they do in drug prosecutions. If it is not in the millions of rip-offs, they will not touch it, takes too much time to put the costly resources of the federal government on those cases. A US attorney once told me they only wanted sexy cases, those that got lots of headlines. The reason is that those cases send a message to many other companies and deters them from bad conduct. They do not work small cases, not a chance in a million.

Actually, I worked 60 hour weeks as a prosecutor just down the road in an adjacent county as an Assistant District Attorney. My case load include close to 5,000 persons at some point in the investigation, prosecution and follow up stages. In that 6 years, I was prosecutor of the year once. On year I recall, I sent 38 people to prison, and one I recall 22 jury trial and many bench trials. I have had 35-40 defendants show up for arraignment on a single day. It took 2 assistants with dollies just to carry all the files. Most prosecutors are over worked and under funded, that is why BOTH state and federal prosecutors do pleas bargains, always over 90% state and federal. Just the way it is. And, we do not have enough prisons for that other 90%, taxpayers would never pay for it. So we prioritize. Murders always go first. Then my priorities were always hurt people, rape, beatings, and so on. Those cases go first. Then drunk driving because it kills kids. And then drugs, you have to work those cases. So, when somebody comes in with a complaint to the local police department that some guy ripped them off for a $30 item or even $100, you gotta decide. It is not going to save anyone from bleeding and harm. Just the way it is. And when we talk about those rich lawyers living large, my salary was $48,000. The same job in New York might have been $248,000 but not that way out here.

You asked about Newalla. Newalla is not a town, it is a name given to a rural area. It has it's own zip code and is located in far SE Oklahoma City, maybe 30-35 miles from the famous federal building blown up by Tim McVeigh in 1995, i recall it, I could here it but not see it, I was on the phone with my wife, who was a mile away. They have a Federal Trade Commission. But they have no representative in Oklahoma, the nearest office is Dallas, those cases are done on-line, anyway. So regardless of the FTC rule you cite, nobody is going to file anything on it, not in a million years, unless the company is ripping off people in the millions. Just the best use of taxpayer dollars. You would approve if you saw the real costs.

Nobody, city, state or local is going to get very excited about a case like that. Prove me wrong. More important data, next post down.

More the next post.
Click to expand...

Law-dog said:
...But this guy is different. He gives the option to get on the waiting list. When he gets them made up, built on demand and backlog, he ships them....
Click to expand...
Hmmm....I just wonder if I can get on the list though without paying him first and letting him sit on my money for a year and a half? I can guarantee you that he would tell you to pound sand unless he had the money in hand.

Imagine if you ordered ten sets from him, PAID him, and then he died 15 months later....I don't think a stop-payment on the check or a fraud investigation would carry much weight after almost two years of waiting....Anyone with a brain cell would simply ask you why you waited so long to complain.
 
Sevens said:
There are other gun related businesses that take a LONG TIME to fill orders. Custom leather and gunsmith work are the obvious ones. So a long wait is not unheard of and should not be out of the question.

The complete and total communication blackout? Unacceptable. And Tyler T-Grip is infamous for it.
Click to expand...
A product with no moving parts made up of a small aluminum casting and stamped out spring clip should not be hard to produce. Their aluminum casting supplier may be the holdup, unless that is done in-house.
Bad business management at any rate.
 
PatriotX said:
While patience is rare to have in this instant society, do you feel that a year is an appropriate amount of time to wait for a paid product?

If you don’t want people to complain about your business, run it like a business.
Click to expand...

Unless a business clearly communicates that a significant "lead time" is to be expected, at the time that an order is placed, it is my personal opinion that a full year is an unacceptable amount of time to delay a product's delivery to a paying customer.
 
Melvin died. Some relative took over and is running the business part time. It seems he actually only works at it rarely. Waits are long. But, as far as I know, orders do get filled. This is common knowledge to anybody who does even a cursory search. Yep, no way to run a business that's for sure. But that's just the way this one is. Probably has something to do with T-grips not being near as popular as they once were. Maybe the guy is just waiting for enough orders to come in so that its worth his time to make a batch? IDK?
The last time I ordered from Tyler was 7-8 years ago. I knew it would be a long wait, so I ordered more than I thought I would ever need. IIRC I bought eight of them. It took about a year, but I did get them. I knew all of this in advance. I was ready for it.
These threads pop up every now and then with somebody all bent outta shape because their order is taking too long and a bunch of other people pile on and rant away. Threating to sic this or that govt agency on them and it does nothing.
All I can say is you shoulda done your homework Dude. :rolleyes:
 
vetz76 said:
I have one I removed from one of my dad's Smiths, I don't like the thing, it just seems extraneous to me.
Click to expand...

Now you mention it - I never tried one, & didn't care to - so never considered one on my revolvers - I can use longest grip possible (wide palms).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

J
Tyler grips adapter.
2
Replies
26
Views
2K
CajunBass
CajunBass
3
Passed on a 64-3 with 3" barrel and real Tyler T-grip
2
Replies
22
Views
2K
LVSteve
LVSteve
ENNE-FRAME
REVISED a nice story of a Money Order and Mister X
Replies
6
Views
643
Onomea
Onomea
DeplorabusUnum
A tale of Tyler T
2
Replies
27
Views
2K
morglan
M
Vtgw938
  • Locked
**WITHDRAWN**FS -Tyler T-Grip #6, Polished, No Box & Quickly Reduced
Replies
1
Views
872
Vtgw938
Vtgw938

Latest posts

Back
Top