A Scarce Victory Variation

Goony

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When the U.S. Navy discovered that a dropped Victory revolver could discharge, they enjoined Smith & Wesson to make them safer in that regard. The company responded by revising the existing lockwork to incorporate a hammer block, and by the beginning of 1945 this became standard for ongoing production, the serial number prefix shifting from "V" to "SV" to identify the latest modified version. I believe this would've begun to occur somewhere in the early 700000 range, although I wouldn't be surprised if there was a considerable overlap in the serial number sequence between the two types. This improvement was retained when after the war the company resumed manufacture of commercial M&P's (initially making use of leftover, unfinished "SV" Victory frames).

The gun shown here is a somewhat different animal, having been originally shipped in mid-1943 and subsequently returned to S&W to be retrofitted with the hammer block. In this process, it gained an "S" stamped ahead of the existing "V" and so far as I can tell, was in addition otherwise thoroughly refurbished as well. The factory's output of brand new "SV" Victory revolvers during the waning months of the war evidently greatly exceeded the quantity of these earlier guns being updated by S&W.
 

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Thanks Goony. I believe that one is in my database (with the complete serial number).

I have recorded a handful of the returned Navy guns that were upgraded to incorporate the sliding hammer block safety. The lowest number I've found is 984704. It has the S added.

The highest number I've located is SV384340. That one originally shipped in August 1943.

On the other side of the ledger, SV732261 is the lowest number I've recorded among the new production units with the new safety mechanism. It shipped to the Navy on June 29, 1945. So, your estimate: "I believe this would've begun to occur somewhere in the early 700000 range ..." is probably correct.
 
I always look at the term "scarce" as referring to original guns leaving the factory for the first time. Returned guns are all post-factory modifications and hard to classify since many things could be ordered changed on guns returned to the factory.

I know of no changes to the hammer block safety during the war years until a 3rd style hammer block change was made in 1946? I assume that revolver was returned to the factory in 1946 or later to have the 3rd style safety block added? There were three changes made to this safety feature starting in 1915 engineering change that offered the first true hammer block to the revolvers. 2nd Style was introduced in 1925 and that change for various models was made until all models received the block safety on the Model 1917 changed in 1933. What I have never understood is why there were claims of dropped guns firing even with the 1st or 2nd style hammer block installed??
 
A Navy seaman was killed when a Victory revolver was dropped on the steel deck of his ship. The Ordnance Dept. approved the new hammer block in late 1944 and a contract was let in May 1945 to convert 40,000 revolvers. The complete documentation can be found in Pate's excellent book on WWII handguns.
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The initial Navy complaint was filed in July 1944. The design for the new hammer block safety was completed by the end of September 1944. In October, the Navy authorized the change. Production of units with the new device began in December and the first shipments took place in January 1945.

The agreement between S&W and the Navy for upgrading previously issued revolvers (40,000 units) was not signed until May 1945, so the conversions started after the newly produced units were already shipping to the Navy.

All of the above information (gleaned by me from various sources) agrees with what Pate wrote in U.S. Handguns of World War II, The Secondary Pistols and Revolvers.

As the document shown by kwill1911 demonstrates, only 39,678 of those revolvers could be refitted. I wonder about the date of that letter. It is clearly dated 13 May 1946, but the receipt stamp in the upper right corner seems to show 14 May 1945. The latter makes more sense.
 
I'd remark that with well over 39,000 revolvers having been overhauled, "scarce" wouldn't seem to be the proper adjective to apply to them. In fact, it seems that perhaps roughly as many were being refurbished as newly manufactured by S&W during this period, which I wouldn't have thought to be the case. That said, extant examples ought not be so infrequently encountered nowadays as it appears they are. There's a disconnect of some sort with respect to these.
 
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Jim Supica's list of engineering changes list the 3rd style hammer block as starting in 1946, so maybe he used that 1946 letter date? That letter stated that over 39,000 guns were already converted by May 1946, which sounds like a lot of guns converted in 5 months, but possible? Just checked Roy's list of engineering changes to find things to add to the confusion. He stated that a new hammer block started on December 27, 1944 with serial number S769,000 and on January 1, 1945 all specials shipped from the first day of January have the new hammer block safety, so . . . ?
 
I'd remark that with well over 39,000 revolvers having been overhauled, "scarce" wouldn't seem to be the proper adjective to apply to them. In fact, it seems that perhaps roughly as many were being refurbished as newly manufactured by S&W during this period, which I wouldn't have thought to be the case.
I agree. One would not think them to be in the "scarce" category.
That said, extant examples ought not be so infrequently encountered nowadays as it appears they are. There's a disconnect of some sort with respect to these.
I also agree with this. It does seem strange that they show up so infrequently. Perhaps it is just that few of them are in the hands of collectors and that other owners simply have no idea what they have. Nevertheless, I have amassed data on more than 15,000 SV and S units, and only a few of the early Navy guns (39,000 plus) have actually been identified. Interesting!
 
That letter stated that over 39,000 guns were already converted by May 1946, which sounds like a lot of guns converted in 5 months, but possible?
Yes. That's a lot in a short time. Especially when you consider that they were still cranking out new units.
Just checked Roy's list of engineering changes to find things to add to the confusion. He stated that a new hammer block started on December 27, 1944 with serial number S769,000 and on January 1, 1945 all specials shipped from the first day of January have the new hammer block safety, so . . . ?
Yes, that checks with the information I've compiled. Actual production of units with the new safety began in December, with shipments beginning in January. That statement by Roy was one of the sources I consulted. We also know that some new units with the new safety had serial numbers lower than SV769000, but that simply reflects the fact that assembly did not occur in serial order.
 
Most users would not know from visual observation what to look for to establish that a modification had been performed, aside from the addition of an S to the serial number. If in fact shipments of newly manufactured revolvers began at SV769000, it seems logical that any revolver having a SN including an S stamping having a number below 769000 would indicate that it would have to be be one of the 39.7K units later factory modified. Some earlier sideplates also had an S stamping on them. I do not know when the S sideplate stamp began or ended, only that does exist. It identified that the interior face of the sideplate had been machined to accept the new design hammer drop safety.
 
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Just checked Roy's list of engineering changes to find things to add to the confusion. He stated that a new hammer block started on December 27, 1944 with serial number S769,000 and on January 1, 1945 all specials shipped from the first day of January have the new hammer block safety, so . . . ?
I really question that V769000 number being tied to the end of December, 1944. V663373 (over a hundred thousand earlier) has been documented as shipping in November, 1944, while SV769844 didn't ship until March, 1946 as one of the company's early postwar commercial M&P's.
 
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I really question that V769000 number being tied to the end of December, 1944. V663373 (over a hundred thousand earlier) has been documented as shipping in November, 1944
I don't have a solid answer, but here are two thoughts to ponder:
1. Revolvers were not assembled in serial order.
2. V prefix units were being produced at the rate of approximately 265,000 per year (more that 22,000 per month) from April 1942 until July/August 1945. And by December 1944, S&W was no longer producing the BSR.
 
Interesting discussion. Of the 39,678 revolvers returned to S&W was there any consistent, or otherwise, markings applied beyond the S on the serial number? Given S&W's practice of stamping the diamond, 5 pointed star and the 3-4 digit date code on reworked guns I have to wonder. The S stamp on the side plate seems, to me any way, somewhat inconsistent.
 
Thanks Goony. I believe that one is in my database (with the complete serial number).

I have recorded a handful of the returned Navy guns that were upgraded to incorporate the sliding hammer block safety. The lowest number I've found is 984704. It has the S added.

The highest number I've located is SV384340. That one originally shipped in August 1943.

On the other side of the ledger, SV732261 is the lowest number I've recorded among the new production units with the new safety mechanism. It shipped to the Navy on June 29, 1945. So, your estimate: "I believe this would've begun to occur somewhere in the early 700000 range ..." is probably correct.
Mine was a 5", in .38 S&W, ser. V 381377, so it never made it back for the upgrade...
 
Mine was US Property, complete with all stamps and US GOV acceptance marks...no import, no export
Was it marked "U.S. PROPERTY" or "UNITED STATES PROPERTY"? What are the US GOV acceptance marks to which you refer? What kind of grips? Thanks.
 
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