I sat and stared for a bit, and then decided, "This man has the patience of a Saint!"
My compliments!
Ralph Tremaine
My compliments!
Ralph Tremaine
Observations on the DSC Victory Revolvers (Update 19MAR24)
- Thread starter RM Vivas
- Start date
larryofcc
Member
For the life of me, I cannot understand why these revolvers were sent to ships? What use would they have aboard a big ship? Garands and Thompsons, maybe BAR's, but a handgun? What purpose would that accomplish? Seems silly to me. Big Larry
Having studied WWII warships in my research I found that the companionways for most vessels were very narrow which might impede the Marine contingent assigned to preserve order if they were carrying long guns...During those few instances when sailors got too rowdy below decks and Navy law needed to be enforced, a sidearm made a lot more sense than a Garand...Less chance of overpenetration also if shots had to be fired to gain attention among the merry-makers...
...Ben
kwill1911
Member
On carriers all the aviators were issued Victory Model revolvers. There were guns for defense, e.g. to repel boarders, and for recreation.
RM - Thank you for all the time and work that you have put into this post. Myself, and other members appreciate all that you are doing.
Your post mentions that someone could request a 4" Victory and then have the S&W Repair Center change it to a 2" barrel. Would this show up anywhere on the DSC invoice? I have a lettered 2" that shows it was shipped as a 2" from S&W. My question is was it shipped after a modification from S&W, and would this show up anywhere? Years ago I was told that there was not info from the DSC on my gun, but now things have been updated and digitized. Here is a link to that gun that I have.
Got My Letter on Victory 2" Model
In my old age I am starting to thin out my S&W herd and this may be one that goes and I want to be honest about all the info I have from the past. Thanks again.
Your post mentions that someone could request a 4" Victory and then have the S&W Repair Center change it to a 2" barrel. Would this show up anywhere on the DSC invoice? I have a lettered 2" that shows it was shipped as a 2" from S&W. My question is was it shipped after a modification from S&W, and would this show up anywhere? Years ago I was told that there was not info from the DSC on my gun, but now things have been updated and digitized. Here is a link to that gun that I have.
Got My Letter on Victory 2" Model
In my old age I am starting to thin out my S&W herd and this may be one that goes and I want to be honest about all the info I have from the past. Thanks again.
ordnanceguy
Member
Hello John:
I don't see that Robert has been able to get back to you on your inquiry yet. If you don't mind I will jump in with some semi-informed speculation.
Since your factory letter confirms that the revolver shipped as a 2 inch gun I would expect that the Invoice would also so state. My suggestion is that you ask the S&WHF for a "deep dive" on your serial number and see if the Invoice, any Repair Department or related correspondence is available.
A couple of other thoughts occur to me about your V510473. First, it is considerably outside of the serial number range of the DSC authorized 2 inch guns that shipped later in the war. Indeed, in the Victory Model Database your 2 incher is the only lettered 2 incher in the range of your gun. Since it letters as a legit 2 incher it must be regarded as genuine but a bit anomalous.
Second, it is recorded in the Database that your revolver has no serial number on the barrel flat. (Please let me know if that is wrong and I will amend the Database entry.) That means that (a) it shipped originally with a numbered 2 inch barrel that was later replaced with the current unnumbered barrel, or (b) it shipped with the current unnumbered barrel. The military shipped 2 inchers and the later DSC 2 inchers have serial numbers marked on the barrel flat. I do not know if those new guns that had 4 inch barrels swapped out for 2 inchers by the factory Repair Department had serial numbers applied to the barrel flat.
Finally, when looking at the pics of your revolver provided in the link in your post above I noticed that the ejector rod tip was smooth, not knurled. (I have reposted one of your pics below to illustrate this point.)
All of the military 2 inchers and the later shipped DSC authorized 2 inchers that I am aware had ejector rods that were knurled on the tip. See the image below of V663857. I am not sure of the significance of that fact as it relates to your revolver but it may mean that your ejector rod was not originally a rod for a 2 inch gun.
I am not sure that I have shed much light on your questions but I hope that I have helped you with some additional information.
Regards,
Charlie
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Thank you for that information, Charlie. In comparing the pictures of yours and mine, I see that in the very front of the lower part of the barrel, a small part of the ejector rod detent is sticking out on mine but not on yours. This is the front side of the detent pin. Any significance here?
On another note, who would I get in touch with at the S&WHF to request a deep dive. In the past I have contacted doc44, but I don't know if he is still doing that. Again, many thanks.
On another note, who would I get in touch with at the S&WHF to request a deep dive. In the past I have contacted doc44, but I don't know if he is still doing that. Again, many thanks.
As a Marine Option midshipman in 1973, I was assigned to the USS Semmes, DDG-18, in the summer of 1973. The Semmes was stationed at the Charleston SC Naval Base. The quarterdeck watch was armed with a 1911A1 .45 semiautomatic, carried in a black holster which was slipped into a white canvas carrier. This holster/carrier was attached to a white pistol belt and there was a white magazine holder attached as well. In the holder were two (2) .45 magazines with five (5) in each. The .45 was carried unloaded.
As the quarterdeck watch was relieved, we were to hand over the .45 with the slide latched back. The new watch holder inspected the chamber, released the slide, pulled the trigger and secured the handgun in the holster.
The watch was changed every 4 hours while in port and yes, I stood watch as well.
As noted above, the majority of the Navy Victory models were assigned to the Airedales (slang for aviators and crew).
ordnanceguy
Member
Vettepartz:
I don't know what significance, if any, to attribute to the rod detent pin sticking out front on your revolver.
To request the S&WHF "deep dive" see this easy link:
Deep Dive Letter Request Form – Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation
Regards,
Charlie
Many thanks, Charlie. I would never have found that form without your help. I have filled out one request and submitted it. If anything new comes up, I will post it here.
OP
RM Vivas
US Veteran
Please excuse me for not having gotten back to you sooner.
The user requested conversions of 4-inch guns to 2-inch guns is something that, I believe, has not been well documented up till now and will cause collectors to re-examine undocumented 2-inch guns with an eye towards whether they are 'true' 2-inch guns (built from the ground up as 2-inch for 2-inch contracts) or a '12-bit special' (a gun that was authorized as 4-inch but the buyer paid $1.50 to have converted to 2-inch).
What we really need to do is round up a fistful of 2-inch guns that can be documented as 4-to-2 conversions and see about barrel stampings and the like.
When someone placed their DSC order and received confirmation they would send their $1.50 to S&W. My -----THEORY----- is that S&W then went to the Victory bin and pulled out a 4-inch gun that was all ready to go, sent to the repair department who pulled the 4-inch barrel off and then dropped a 2-inch on. Then they -may or may not- have stamped the barrel.
If the Repair Dept could swap barrels without needing to refinish the gun, then this theory holds water. If it was necessary to refinish the gun after a barrel swap then I would think that the frames were then pulled off the line before barrel attachments were done, the 2-inch was soft fitted and numbered, and the gun refinished.
This latter seems more sesible as a) it prevents a gun being finished once and then refinished b) if 4-inch barrels were removed from finished guns and replaced with 2-inch barrels, shouldn't we bee seing guns with 4 -inch barrels that have had an old s/n xxx'ed out or buffed out and a new one applied?
I'm trying to find the DSC shipping invoice for your gun. I've been working on a database of all the DSC shipping invoices but am only up to 1943 or so at the moment. Your gun would be in the 4400-4600 range of DSC shipping invoices. Once I find that, if I can, it will help lead me to any corresponddence that might shed more light.
Gimme a few days.
Best,
RM Vivas
Now THAT'S dedication...I think we can wait, Robert...
...Ben
OP
RM Vivas
US Veteran
I did a quick search through DSC orders for the first quarter of 1944 and did not find anything
This is not a reason for discouragement however.
When the documents were scanned into the SWHF archives, the folks doing it were a bit limited in their options as far as search fields and labelling. Also, they weren't 'gunnies' like the rest of us, so features you and I would find critical just went right over their head. I could give you many examples but let us use a fictitious one:
S&W shipped one Victory #V123456 with soft fitting number 98765 to:
ABC Shipbuilders
Att: Plant Security, CPT Joe Blow
123 Pier One
Brooklyn Navy Yard
Brooklyn, NY
Now we can search for this record under the following fields:
Document Type
Client Name
City
State
New Document Date
Calibers
Serial Numbers
Followed by some internal search fields like Date Entered Into System, DVD Name, File Path, etc. Stuff not really useful for an initial search.
So lets start with the obvious, SERIAL NUMBER. We plug 123456 into the search field. The serial number searches don't use letters. I believe this is mainly because most documents and correspondence doesn't include it. After all, if in 1939 you had an M&P #876543 you couldn't expect there would eventually be an S876543, C876543, D876543, etc. And lets not even get into the whole issue of guns of different models having the same s/n; .32HE #2345 AND M&P #2345 AND Chief Special 2345, etc.
So we plug in 123456 and we get 12 returns. An M&P pre-war, a Chief Special, a.32 HE, etc. but no Victory Model. Is there no Victory because it was never entered by serial number, or was it entered but the typist fumble-fingered the serial into 123455 or something similar? Or did someone write in about their revolver "…a stamped number on grip 123456 and serial number on frame 98765…" and the person making the data entry for the one thousandth time that day just saw "serial number" and "98765" and logged it in that way?
Not insurmountable, lets approach it from another angle…. Give me a list of all shipments to CLIENT NAME: ABC Shipbuilders. OK, 6 shipments come up but none within the time-frame we are looking for. So what now? Well, there is that listing for ABC Shipbuilders that produced 6 hits but lets do a search for CLIENT NAME: Joe Blow. Well looky there….a listing for a shipment to Joe Blow. We pull the DSC invoice and its for ABC Shipbuilding Att: Joe Blow. Then we do a CLIENT SEARCH: Plant Security and it pulls up 23 returns, 2 of which are for ABC Shipbuilding.
You see, the guys who inputted the data may not have had a really rigorous set of standard on how to label stuff. If they did then perhaps stuff came their way that didn't fit their guidelines and they just had to wing it. The result is that if you type in Client Name: ABC Shipbuilding you'll get a lot less than if you searched:
CLIENT NAME:
ABC Shipbuilding
Joe Blow
Plant Security
It's the same if you were searching by CITY. Technically, the Navy Yard is in Brooklyn and should come up under Brooklyn. However, Brooklyn is a borough of Greater New York City and thus might be listed under CITY: New York.
DOCUMENT TYPE is a field we could search under. I'll search DOCUMENT TYPE: Order and get back 250 different orders for the first quarter of 1944 but if I search DOCUMENT TYPE: Orders (note the plural -s- on the end), I'll get back 120 results, -none- of which came back in the Order (singular) inquiry. Again, the addition of the single -s can change results dramatically. As I search more and more through the archives, I develop little tricks and techniques to try to account for these variances.
It's a Herculean task to try and unfornicate all this data. Right now, one of my -many- projects is creating a database of all the DSC Shipping Invoices that accounts for these discrepancies and variations. I've spoke of this project before ( Observations on the DSC Victory Revolvers (Update 19MAR24) ). The goal is to index every surviving DSC Shipping Invoice and put it into an easily searchable database.
The various fields that I used to organize the data are:
SERIAL NUMBER – Although by no means common, there were over one thousand serial numbers jotted down thus far. In instances where a serial number was on an invoice, I added it to the spreadsheet (duh!)
CUSTOMER'S DATE – Presumably this is the date the customer ordered his gun through DSC. This data occupies a specific line on the invoice.
DATE – I believe this to be the date that S&W received the order from DSC and started processing it. This date also occupies a specific date on the invoice.
SHIPPING DATE? – This is a date rubber stamped on the bottom of the invoice, usually twice, and I believe that it reflects the date of the actual shipment. I'm in the process of using some exploratory techniques to verify this thesis.
ORDER – This is a specific line item on the invoice and will contain the letters DSC followed by a space and then a three or four digit number (DSC 1234). Despite being labelled ORDER, this is –not—the DSC order number. Research suggests this is actually the DSC shipping or shipment number.
ORDER NO. – This is a notation usually typed on the invoice with what is described as a "Contract No.". From what I have seen thus far, the contract numbers were arbitrary and didn't seem to follow any pattern. Often the incorporated the intials of the ordering party as part of the number, so when Gruman Aircraft ordered revolvers, their contract number may have been GAC1234 or some such.
NAME, TITLE, STREET ADDRESS, CITY, STATE - Self explanatory
NUMBER AND TYPE OF GUNS IN SHIPMENT – Again, pretty self-explanatory. The guns were almost always described as "38 M&P 4" sq." and then either a letter "B" to indicate blue or "sand blast" to indicate a parkerized-type finish. Sometimes "sand blast" would be typed in as part of the arm description and other times just the initials "SB" would be penned in.
RECORD LOCATION – If you can't locate the record, then you can't prove anything. This is the record identifier so I can find the record again in the database.
I think this allows a much more nuanced look at the DSC guns.
I know that at Tulsa one fellow asked me about an International Harvester gun that did not come up on a SWHF search of the database but turned up in mine because I could search across multiple fields while the SWHF database was limited. In this instance, the gun -was- in the SWHF database but listed under the plant security officers name, not under the name of the plant (International Harvester).
The point of all this is that if an initial basic inquiry fails to produce a result, there are other techniques that can help us to track down the data. It's really about asking the -right- question the -right- way.
Anyway, I'll keep looking to see what I can find on this 2-inch 12-bit special that went to JA Jones Construction Co.
Best,
RM Vivas
This is not a reason for discouragement however.
When the documents were scanned into the SWHF archives, the folks doing it were a bit limited in their options as far as search fields and labelling. Also, they weren't 'gunnies' like the rest of us, so features you and I would find critical just went right over their head. I could give you many examples but let us use a fictitious one:
S&W shipped one Victory #V123456 with soft fitting number 98765 to:
ABC Shipbuilders
Att: Plant Security, CPT Joe Blow
123 Pier One
Brooklyn Navy Yard
Brooklyn, NY
Now we can search for this record under the following fields:
Document Type
Client Name
City
State
New Document Date
Calibers
Serial Numbers
Followed by some internal search fields like Date Entered Into System, DVD Name, File Path, etc. Stuff not really useful for an initial search.
So lets start with the obvious, SERIAL NUMBER. We plug 123456 into the search field. The serial number searches don't use letters. I believe this is mainly because most documents and correspondence doesn't include it. After all, if in 1939 you had an M&P #876543 you couldn't expect there would eventually be an S876543, C876543, D876543, etc. And lets not even get into the whole issue of guns of different models having the same s/n; .32HE #2345 AND M&P #2345 AND Chief Special 2345, etc.
So we plug in 123456 and we get 12 returns. An M&P pre-war, a Chief Special, a.32 HE, etc. but no Victory Model. Is there no Victory because it was never entered by serial number, or was it entered but the typist fumble-fingered the serial into 123455 or something similar? Or did someone write in about their revolver "…a stamped number on grip 123456 and serial number on frame 98765…" and the person making the data entry for the one thousandth time that day just saw "serial number" and "98765" and logged it in that way?
Not insurmountable, lets approach it from another angle…. Give me a list of all shipments to CLIENT NAME: ABC Shipbuilders. OK, 6 shipments come up but none within the time-frame we are looking for. So what now? Well, there is that listing for ABC Shipbuilders that produced 6 hits but lets do a search for CLIENT NAME: Joe Blow. Well looky there….a listing for a shipment to Joe Blow. We pull the DSC invoice and its for ABC Shipbuilding Att: Joe Blow. Then we do a CLIENT SEARCH: Plant Security and it pulls up 23 returns, 2 of which are for ABC Shipbuilding.
You see, the guys who inputted the data may not have had a really rigorous set of standard on how to label stuff. If they did then perhaps stuff came their way that didn't fit their guidelines and they just had to wing it. The result is that if you type in Client Name: ABC Shipbuilding you'll get a lot less than if you searched:
CLIENT NAME:
ABC Shipbuilding
Joe Blow
Plant Security
It's the same if you were searching by CITY. Technically, the Navy Yard is in Brooklyn and should come up under Brooklyn. However, Brooklyn is a borough of Greater New York City and thus might be listed under CITY: New York.
DOCUMENT TYPE is a field we could search under. I'll search DOCUMENT TYPE: Order and get back 250 different orders for the first quarter of 1944 but if I search DOCUMENT TYPE: Orders (note the plural -s- on the end), I'll get back 120 results, -none- of which came back in the Order (singular) inquiry. Again, the addition of the single -s can change results dramatically. As I search more and more through the archives, I develop little tricks and techniques to try to account for these variances.
It's a Herculean task to try and unfornicate all this data. Right now, one of my -many- projects is creating a database of all the DSC Shipping Invoices that accounts for these discrepancies and variations. I've spoke of this project before ( Observations on the DSC Victory Revolvers (Update 19MAR24) ). The goal is to index every surviving DSC Shipping Invoice and put it into an easily searchable database.
The various fields that I used to organize the data are:
SERIAL NUMBER – Although by no means common, there were over one thousand serial numbers jotted down thus far. In instances where a serial number was on an invoice, I added it to the spreadsheet (duh!)
CUSTOMER'S DATE – Presumably this is the date the customer ordered his gun through DSC. This data occupies a specific line on the invoice.
DATE – I believe this to be the date that S&W received the order from DSC and started processing it. This date also occupies a specific date on the invoice.
SHIPPING DATE? – This is a date rubber stamped on the bottom of the invoice, usually twice, and I believe that it reflects the date of the actual shipment. I'm in the process of using some exploratory techniques to verify this thesis.
ORDER – This is a specific line item on the invoice and will contain the letters DSC followed by a space and then a three or four digit number (DSC 1234). Despite being labelled ORDER, this is –not—the DSC order number. Research suggests this is actually the DSC shipping or shipment number.
ORDER NO. – This is a notation usually typed on the invoice with what is described as a "Contract No.". From what I have seen thus far, the contract numbers were arbitrary and didn't seem to follow any pattern. Often the incorporated the intials of the ordering party as part of the number, so when Gruman Aircraft ordered revolvers, their contract number may have been GAC1234 or some such.
NAME, TITLE, STREET ADDRESS, CITY, STATE - Self explanatory
NUMBER AND TYPE OF GUNS IN SHIPMENT – Again, pretty self-explanatory. The guns were almost always described as "38 M&P 4" sq." and then either a letter "B" to indicate blue or "sand blast" to indicate a parkerized-type finish. Sometimes "sand blast" would be typed in as part of the arm description and other times just the initials "SB" would be penned in.
RECORD LOCATION – If you can't locate the record, then you can't prove anything. This is the record identifier so I can find the record again in the database.
I think this allows a much more nuanced look at the DSC guns.
I know that at Tulsa one fellow asked me about an International Harvester gun that did not come up on a SWHF search of the database but turned up in mine because I could search across multiple fields while the SWHF database was limited. In this instance, the gun -was- in the SWHF database but listed under the plant security officers name, not under the name of the plant (International Harvester).
The point of all this is that if an initial basic inquiry fails to produce a result, there are other techniques that can help us to track down the data. It's really about asking the -right- question the -right- way.
Anyway, I'll keep looking to see what I can find on this 2-inch 12-bit special that went to JA Jones Construction Co.
Best,
RM Vivas
Last edited:
OP
RM Vivas
US Veteran
In the course of looking for data on the subject 2-inch 12-bit special, I came across two letters that, while not germane, were still worth posting; one for the information it provides on repairs and the other for human interest.
In the first letter, dated 08FEB44, the Service Division's Mr. Miller explains that the company can only provide repair parts for M&P's because thats all they are producing. Resources allocated to S&W for production may only be used to make parts for government type guns, BUT, those parts may be used to repair guns of the government pattern (M&P) in private hands. Explains further that non-government pattern guns are limited to parts on hand with no possibility of re-supply or new parts being made.
The second letter is human interest gold. 21FEB44 Private Gibbs send one dollar in currency and twelve cents in stamps for an M&P main spring. Service Department hero Mr. Miller responds that the part actually costs $1.65 but he will take the $1.12 as payment in full considering the circumstances and will donate a dollar to the USO.
Some of the human interest letters that I come across from the war years are really interesting.
Best,
RM Vivas
In the first letter, dated 08FEB44, the Service Division's Mr. Miller explains that the company can only provide repair parts for M&P's because thats all they are producing. Resources allocated to S&W for production may only be used to make parts for government type guns, BUT, those parts may be used to repair guns of the government pattern (M&P) in private hands. Explains further that non-government pattern guns are limited to parts on hand with no possibility of re-supply or new parts being made.
The second letter is human interest gold. 21FEB44 Private Gibbs send one dollar in currency and twelve cents in stamps for an M&P main spring. Service Department hero Mr. Miller responds that the part actually costs $1.65 but he will take the $1.12 as payment in full considering the circumstances and will donate a dollar to the USO.
Some of the human interest letters that I come across from the war years are really interesting.
Best,
RM Vivas
Attachments
kwill1911
Member
Here you go:
OP here- Mr. Vivas, I really appreciate all of the work you are going through in your research of these Victory Models, especially mine. I will wait to see if anything new comes in your search on DSC invoices. I think there other members here who are also carefully following your threads. Once again, thank you.
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