charlie sherrill
Member
Kind of makes you wonder how much influence the U-Boats may have had on this.
Observations on the DSC Victory Revolvers (Update 19MAR24)
- Thread starter RM Vivas
- Start date
Kind of makes you wonder how much influence the U-Boats may have had on this.
OP
RM Vivas
US Veteran
Stamp on the front of an envelope sent by S&W during WW2
My delving into DSC invoices is slowly progressing.
I say slowly because there are an awful lot of them.
Each shipment (with some exceptions I'll get to in a minute) had an Order Number that is, I believe, the DSC Shipment Number. I have found correspondence from later in the war where reference is made to various shipments and a DSC Shipment Number is listed. When I go to the invoice with that number listed as ORDER, the numbers and end user match. Therefore, I believe and can substantiate that the entry on each form labelled Order is the DSC Shipment Number. This number is explained in post #1.
My observation so far is that these DSC Order Shipment Numbers are sequential and that they can be used to extrapolate some data figures with the caveat that these are extrapolations and not actually hard verifiable data.
There are several thousand pages of documents and not all are relevant to this project. Once the chaff has been separated from the wheat, one must still log the data into a searchable/sortable format. To give you an example of this, last night it took me 6 hours to make 100 data entries using the data fields shown in post #1. At the moment, my database has about 2,000 entries, approximately half of which have serial number data.
The lowest DSC Shipment number found thus far is DSC 383. The highest one I have seen thus far is DSC 6835. ----Presuming---- that the DSC Shipment Numbers are sequential, and that each shipment was assigned one, it would follow that there were ---at least--- 6,835 separate DSC shipments. A great many shipments were just one or two guns and the largest was 450 guns (Panter Ord. Plant ship date 08JUN42).
When we combine this with the various dates on the Invoices, we can create a rough graph of Victory shipment quantities. For example, if we see that on 01JUN42 the lowest DSC Shipment Number on that date is DSC 700 and on 30JUN42 the highest DSC Shipment Number on that date is DSC 1200, we could estimate that during June 1942 –-at least— 500 shipments of DSC guns were made. I can then pull up the number in each of these shipments and say "From 01JUN42 Shipment #700 to 30JUN42 Shipment #1200, an estimated total of x,xxx guns were shipped by S&W on behalf of DSC".
The more Invoices I find between numbers 700 and 1200, the more accurate the figure becomes.
I find this to be interesting data that could be used in a number of ways.
The purpose of this post, however, is not to explain or discuss the machinations of this project (yet) but to share some interesting things I have observed thus far.
Dates And Shipping Numbers – A very interesting observation is that there are no DSC Shipment Numbers on invoices earlier than the last week of April 1942. All the invoices prior to this have the Order entry left blank. There are a couple hundred entries in my database right now from the last week of March 1942 up until approximately 24APR43 that have no DSC Shipment Number. I think one of the hardcore Victory/DSC folks should look at that. It's my understanding that DSC would ship the guns in the beginning then switched to having the manufacturer ship them; I'm wondering if this is tied to that.
Government Orders – I was surprised to find a number of Federal agencies and military commands were getting guns through DSC. So far, I've seen at least 2,000 Victory revolvers going to the U.S. Maritime Commission. Other Federal groups include INS, U.S. State Department and similar agencies. I would have thought the Feds would not have had to go through the DSC (especially the Maritime Commission).
Quantity – While most shipments were for between one and ten guns, there were quite a few large shipments. The U.S. Maritime Commission shipments usually contained hundreds of guns and that is to be expected. Likewise, the shipment of 80 guns to Mack Truck Co. or 150 guns to North American Aviation also seem quite logical. It's some of the less descriptive names that seem interesting. 200 guns to Todd & Brown, Inc. of Kingsbury, IN; 100 guns to the William J. Burns International Detective Agency of Washington, D.C.; 50 guns to the National Rifle Association (?). If one digs deeper on some of these, a little useful information can be gleaned; Todd & Brown, Inc. operated the Kingsbury Ordnance Plant in Kingsbury, IN. As an aside, their revolvers will be marked K.O.P. with a number (that info came from my related DSC project reviewing Repair Orders).
One of the most interesting invoices came to light last night and prompted me to throw this post together.
An unusual invoice:
Some oddities:
Notice that the Customers's Date, Date and Shipping Date (cropped out in this image) are all the same. this was not an order that languished on a desk for a few days! Someone with some pull placed this.
Under Order instead of having a typical DSC Shipment Number it simply reads "DSC Telg."
Under Via, almost all other DSC orders simply had an X mark. Some Federal orders might indicate a specific railroad or military shipment but these are rare. None that I have seen thus far specified "Air X"
And of course, the destination "Coordinator of Information" (COI). Almost three weeks after these guns shipped, the COI was split into the Office of Strategic Services (OSS) and the Office of War Information. Interestingly there was an officer named Frank Devlin assigned to the 101 Detachment of what would be the OSS. The unit was assembled in April 1942 and while there is no factual basis for such a fantasy, one can't help but wonder if these ten revolvers went to that first OSS team.
Anyway, I've gotten up to June 1942 on the DSC invoices. It's taking longer than I thought but some of the stuff one finds makes for great reading.
The real interesting stuff, the human interest stuff, is in the Repair Order and I am trying to do those at the same time as I am doing the Shipping Invoices. I'm just about done with them and have turned up about 1,000 serial numbers that are confirmed as Victory and about 200 that are likely Victory.
EDITED TO ADD: One thing I forgot to mention was that within the 2nd quarter of 1942 shipping invoices I did find an invoice for a single gun shipment that included a serial number: 999xxx. DSC was still shipping pre-victory guns thru at least April 1942.
EDITED (AGAIN) TO ADD: This is my 400th post!
Best,
RM Vivas
Last edited:
kwill1911
Member
Robert,
Fantastic stuff, as we've come to expect from you. All non-military purchasers (and that includes the Maritime Comm.) had to go through the DSC. The Maritime Comm. built the Liberty and Victory ships being sent via Lend-Lease to Europe. Up to a certain point, the ships were equipped with Victory Model revolvers.
Pate reports the following numbers for DSC Handgun Procurement, 1941-1945:
S&W.....................85,000
Colt OP...................5,000
Colt Commando.....37,000
H&R Sportsman.......1,050
I look forward to your next installment.
Fantastic stuff, as we've come to expect from you. All non-military purchasers (and that includes the Maritime Comm.) had to go through the DSC. The Maritime Comm. built the Liberty and Victory ships being sent via Lend-Lease to Europe. Up to a certain point, the ships were equipped with Victory Model revolvers.
Pate reports the following numbers for DSC Handgun Procurement, 1941-1945:
S&W.....................85,000
Colt OP...................5,000
Colt Commando.....37,000
H&R Sportsman.......1,050
I look forward to your next installment.
OP
RM Vivas
US Veteran
I'm only up to the second quarter of 1942 but can account for about 12-13 thousand so far.
I'm really looking forward to when I have all the surviving invoices indexed as I can then chart shipment amounts and look for trends. Similarly, I will be able to sort by end user and date. Since many of these don't have serial numbers, the date search may be useful. A fellow has a historical letter saying his gun went to Southern Bell with a ship date of 01JUN42, I can search for everything DSC sent out on that date and maybe find the invoice even though it lacks a serial number. Lots of data sorting possibilities.
Best,
RM Vivas
Robert, it would be interesting to know if one of the 10 in the 5/21/42 shipment found its way onto the desk of William "Wild Bill" Donovan in the corner office...We may never know...
...Ben
...Ben
OP
RM Vivas
US Veteran
Robert, it would be interesting to know if one of the 10 in the 5/21/42 shipment found its way onto the desk of William "Wild Bill" Donovan in the corner office...We may never know...
Donovan always struck me as a .38/44 HD or MAgnum guy. I can't imagine he would have a plain jane Victory. Perhaps a nicely finished and custom tuned pre-war M&P, -maybe-.
Best,
RM Vivas
Maybe he could have used one for a boot gun...He probably didn't want foot sweat all over his primary......Ben
...Bencharlie sherrill
Member
I ran across a Victory several years ago that lettered to Hercules Powder Company in Lawrence,Kansas. It was in the early 40's and my Dad worked there as a chemical engineer make rocket powder and other ordinance. My brother was born there during this time. My Dad later retired from Hercules after 38 years. I wanted to buy that Victory but unfortunately it was not for sale. I've got three of them, A Navy, U.S. Property, and a 5" 38 S&W that has an Austria Police marking on it. I am following this thread with much interest.
OP
RM Vivas
US Veteran
So far I've found three shipments to Hercules. Each shipment was for 100 guns.
Best,
RM Vivas
larryofcc
Member
You mention that some of the revolvers sent to the US Maritime Comm. were through the DSC. My factory letter states my Victory # V 486897 was part of a 100 gun shipment directly from S&W, Jan.3rd, 1944, to the US Maritime Commission @$20.60 each. No mention of the DSC. After the war, the revolver was sold to the Boston, MA Police Dept. and so marked on the grip frame B.P.D. 445-V.
Right on the butt near the V is a very tiny flaming bomb stamp. There are no USMC markings on the revolver. It also has the military Black Magic finish. Mr. Don Mundell prepared the letter.
Thanks for the great post. Big Larry
Right on the butt near the V is a very tiny flaming bomb stamp. There are no USMC markings on the revolver. It also has the military Black Magic finish. Mr. Don Mundell prepared the letter.
Thanks for the great post. Big Larry
DSC Victory Revolvers
According to the factory letter my Victory revolver S# V82641
US maritime commission contract was shipped 9-11 44 to US
maritime commission Frisco Texas. No mention made as to
contract number or quantity of revolvers in shipment. It has
the flaming bomb on the butt and was billed at $21.00 and no
mention of DSC.
I've got another Victory that according to the factory letter was
a DSC contract, S# V244839, shipped 7-15-43, part of a 20 gun order. Order number DSC3774 and went to Ex-Marine
Guards Los Angeles. No mention of price.
Regards,
Dick
According to the factory letter my Victory revolver S# V82641
US maritime commission contract was shipped 9-11 44 to US
maritime commission Frisco Texas. No mention made as to
contract number or quantity of revolvers in shipment. It has
the flaming bomb on the butt and was billed at $21.00 and no
mention of DSC.
I've got another Victory that according to the factory letter was
a DSC contract, S# V244839, shipped 7-15-43, part of a 20 gun order. Order number DSC3774 and went to Ex-Marine
Guards Los Angeles. No mention of price.
Regards,
Dick
larryofcc
Member
My Maritime gun was shipped to a different address than yours. It shipped to Reading, Pennsylvania. Big Larry
kwill1911
Member
In the early days of the DSC they actually received the guns from S&W and then shipped them on to the ultimate customer. That practice was deemed inefficient and was changed such that the guns were drop-shipped directly to the defense plant, LEO, Maritime Comm. or other approved domestic entity.
larryofcc
Member
Thanks for clearing that up. NOW, how did US Maritime guns get into the hands of the Boston MA PD after the war? These guns were bought and paid for by the Commission. With all the guns they had, I would surmise they went back to the factory, and were purchased back at S&W. The Commission had no way to sell these guns. Maybe a "deep dive" into my factory letter might tell me. The letter is very vague. Big Larry
kwill1911
Member
I'm fairly sure they did not go back to S&W and maybe you know something I don't (not unusual) but I'm not sure why you say the Commission had no way to sell the guns. Lots of these handguns moved around after the war. There are Colt Woodsman pistols that were originally purchased by the Coast Guard that went to the TVA and finally to NASA in the 1960s.
larryofcc
Member
I would just like to know how they did it. I bought this gun as it was, according to the letter, purchased?, by the Boston PD and marked as such after WW2. My interest lies in the fact that I lived there after WW2. My Dad was a returning Marine to the Boston Navy Yard. I was about 4 years old. Thanks, Big Larry
kwill1911
Member
Larry - I'm confused. I thought you said (in post #30) it lettered to the Maritime Comm. Your post #36 (just above) indicates that it was "purchased?, by the Boston PD...." Are you assuming the Boston PD purchased it from S&W. If so, why? Please help the dumbest kid in school (me) understand.
larryofcc
Member
No. The factory letter states it went to the Commission in 1944. Whoever sent for the letter must have asked about the B.P.D. and number stamped deeply into the backstrap, and the answer was, it was sold to the Boston PD after the war. Nothing more. That's why I am considering a deep dive search from the Historical people. Maybe that is where the info came from. Big Larry
kwill1911
Member
Gotcha. It was most likely marked by the BPD.
Sorry to Robert for the thread drift.
Sorry to Robert for the thread drift.
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